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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,176

Air Breathing Orbital Propulsion Methods (VELO)

Air Breathing Orbital Propulsion:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-BB1j259A
Quote:

‘Air-breathing’ propulsion tech could unlock unlimited propellant for satellites
Story by Chris Young • 1w • 3 min read

Very Low Earth Orbit (VLEO), situated at an altitude between 100 and approximately 450 km (most commonly 250-350 km) is becoming increasingly attractive for both commercial and scientific endeavours. "It is easier to get to, requires fewer resources for communications, and allows for smaller payloads.

I had previously seen reference to a European device: https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Pr … 20payloads.  Quote:

ESA seeks space applications ideas in Very Low Earth Orbit
18/10/2023
3287 VIEWS
35 LIKES

Image Quote:

Frankly after that is achieved, I would like to see orbital power stations that can tow these devices to collect air from the upper atmosphere.
It may be that tethers electrified could be the propulsion method for that.  Instead to dumping the materials, for propulsion they would be collected so as to load propellants to interplanetary or Lunar spacecraft.

The electrified tethers might push off of the Earth's magnetic field.

Such a device might work for Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune.  For Venus, Mars, and Pluto, somehow the solar wind might be the method of propulsion.

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Last edited by Void (2024-03-10 12:54:34)

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tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 17,449

Re: Air Breathing Orbital Propulsion Methods (VELO)

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time.

The link provided in Post #1 leads to an article that reveals at the ** very ** end that this system needs a bit of work before it can go into production.

On the ** other ** hand, the proposal was well enough regarded that it received preliminary funding from a government agency.

The sticking point is how to insure that there is an equal output of charged particles, so that the net effect of operation of the system is neutral.

The article spends most of it's content talking about how wonderful this system would be if it ever works.

I'm hoping NewMars members will keep a close eye on this venture.

Howevr, any investor would be wise to steer clear until the "technical issues" are solved.

(th)

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,176

Re: Air Breathing Orbital Propulsion Methods (VELO)

Well, this is nerd food: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO3ENmbQQ9o
Quote:

Introducing: Ascender H1 Variant Orbital Airship

John Powell
3.21K subscribers

If the members need to, then hammer away.  I am only providing awareness of the video.

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Last edited by Void (2024-03-11 08:36:43)

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tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 17,449

Re: Air Breathing Orbital Propulsion Methods (VELO)

For Void re #3

Thank you for providing this update on the work of John Powell....

NewMars members may recall the name.

It has come up previously. I am glad to see the update.

Here is a list of posts that contain "John" and "Powell" and which also related to the balloon effort.

Re: Planetary transportation » Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled » 2023-09-09 08:34:00
tahanson43206

Re: Interplanetary transportation » Airship to Orbit? » 2021-12-17 14:32:47

Re: Interplanetary transportation » Un- conventional ways to LEO » 2020-11-28 09:46:29

Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Technology Updates » 2020-06-17 11:39:59

Re: Interplanetary transportation » Compressed gas balloon rocket for Mars launch » 2020-06-06 14:40:08

Re: Interplanetary transportation » Balloon Landing System from Phobos to Mars » 2020-05-14 12:18:38

Re: Interplanetary transportation » Airship to Orbit? » 2020-01-01 23:57:50

Re: Planetary transportation » Dirigibles on Mars - A practical means of transport? » 2019-12-31 21:07:05

Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Newmars Book Club » 2019-05-20 13:20:05

Re: Human missions » Calling our technical experts - Any chance this thing works? » 2005-08-29 09:29:21

I note that the earliest post dates all the way back to 2005 .... It is nearly 20 years later, so I am glad to see the link posted in #3 is available for an update.

(th)

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,176

Re: Air Breathing Orbital Propulsion Methods (VELO)

That is encouraging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JP_Aerospace

I would like to know more about there engines, and if they could breath air somehow.

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Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,464

Re: Air Breathing Orbital Propulsion Methods (VELO)

Void, this is an interesting new topic.  I think it could work, but it will be a difficult engineering job to build a spacecraft that can harvest Earth's atmosphere from orbit.  Because the atmospheric ions will be hitting your scoop at a velocity of about 7.7km/s, your spacecraft will need a propulsion system with an exhaust velocity somewhat greater than this to maintain its orbital speed.  Presumably, it would use some of the gathered air as propellant.  There would also be a non-trivial amount of heat generated as you cool down the atmospheric ions that are entering the scoop at 7.7km/s.  But I think it could work.  Ion propulsion using nitrogen as propellant would appear promissing.

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,176

Re: Air Breathing Orbital Propulsion Methods (VELO)

Yes, high speed accumulation is going to be difficult.

I wonder though if the ship could tank up on atmosphere before going to high speed.

Then as it might be able to move to a high speed, could a rotavator give it assistance to orbit.

Granted the junk problem in orbit will be an impediment to that.

Anyway, I think this tech might be as much as 50 years off if it can be done at all.

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SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,017

Re: Air Breathing Orbital Propulsion Methods (VELO)

Semm quite possible to be collecting the castoff from the solar wind but we are talked about the syphoning of that atmosphere as well.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,176

Re: Air Breathing Orbital Propulsion Methods (VELO)

This is a hard path, but it seems that it is being looked into: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpGCN-qH9VE
Quote:

Air Breathing Electric Propulsion - High Concept Satellite Dream or Soon to be Reality?

Tom Dune - UK Space News

More from the query: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Air+Breat … 8D&pc=U531

https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Sp … c_thruster

Here is a bit about the 1959 PROFAC (Mentioned in the video): https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index … ic=17984.0
Quote:

Author Topic: Scooping atmospheric air (PROFAC revisited)  (Read 66861 times)
Offline alexterrell
Full Member
****
Posts: 1747
Germany
Liked: 184
Likes Given: 107
Scooping atmospheric air (PROFAC revisited)
« on: 07/22/2009 02:07 pm »
Following a discussion here (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. … c=17776.75) , I was wondering if anyone was revisiting the PROFAC concept of the 1960s.

http://www.bisbos.com/rocketscience/spa … rofac.html

Profac required a 10MW nuclear reactor, which is probably not feasible in a 120km orbit. So how about we revisit it using tethers.

I propose:
An accumulator module at an altitude of 120km, consisting of:
- a 4m diameter scoop, imposing a drag of 500N, and collecting 3 tons of air per day (assuming 50% capture)
- A compressor, and heat rejection radiators. I estimate this needs about 50 KW.
- Two tanks for liquid air.

A mother ship, orbiting at about 320km, consisting of:
- Solar power
- Electrodynamic reboost facility
- Tether deployment mechanism, for raising and lowering both the accumulator module, and the air tanks.
- Liquid air storage and separation facilities
- A housing for the accumulator stage when it's reeled in so it can be maintained in a shirt sleeve environment
- Optionally, a crew visiting module.
- Tether repair facility
- A counter balance to keep the main elements of the mother ship at zero g.
- A HVDC connection to the Accumulator to power the compressor. (Can you send DC over 200km through the Earth's magnetic field - or do we need a laser?).

The whole mission would be launched by an Ares V or a Jupiter 232. The mother ship would then deploy the accumulator and lower it 200km, where it would scoop up about 3 tons per day of air (about 20 tons of oxygen per month).

The accumulator would be linked by a number of hoy-tethers, so it can be reeled in.

When one of the air tanks is full, it would be reeled up to the mother ship over a day or so (<10km/hr).

A repair unit can move between the accumulator unit and the mother ship to replace broken stands of fibre. (Probably spectra 2000).

Once every few years, the accumulator can be reeled into the bay of the mother ship, the doors closed and the bay pressurised. A visiting Orion crew will carry out maintenance and replace the tether reels.

Question: 1. I can't get a figure for electrodynamic thrust in N/KW. I assume the accumulator has a 500N counter force. The tethers and mother station will bring this to below 1KN. Given day time operation only, probably want to scale for 2KN of thrust. What power is needed for this?

2. Would this concept be worthwhile, in the medium term for supporting constellation, and in the long term for supplying nitrogen to space. Apart from breathing air in lava tubes etc, does nitrogen have a use?

3. Any other improvements or major issues?

« Last Edit: 07/23/2009 09:24 am by alexterrell »

So, I have a notion of a rotavator with two engines the alternately dip into the atmosphere to propel against the thin atmosphere,  and to collect atmosphere.  Solar panels at the hub.

But it is a very big major ask.

Worlds where this could be used would be any with a equal to that of Mars or better.  But in many non-Earth cases, nuclear may well be better than solar power.  Solar power might be OK for Venus though.

So, I think it would be very useful to be able to tank up with atmospheric gasses of any kind, from orbit.

But the idea has a long way to go, I am sure, and it may not be possible.  But if it can work for any world, that would be important.

Possible worlds to use it around: Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter???, Saturn & Titan, Uranus, Neptune & maybe Triton, Pluto.

Perhaps in 50 years or so.  I have been told that ideas take that long to become real.
But this was considered in some way back in 1959.

Done

I presume that worlds with atmosphere and a relatively low gravity, may work the best.  Mars and Titan perhaps, maybe Triton.

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Last edited by Void (Yesterday 22:43:18)

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