Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

RickSmith · 2007-03-03 18:29:09

Hi Everyone,
It is looking like the water on Mars were quite acidic (enough so that carbonates will not form). Given that Mars started out with a simular volitile mix as Earth (and Earth has ended up with oceans that are slightly alkaline) this is interesting to me.

This thread is intended for information on WHY the Martian seas ended up so acidic.

What are the biological implications of wide spread salty / acidic water?

This thread is also is for comments on if the problem will resolve itself if we do a "Rick Standard" terraforming of Mars, or if we will have to take steps to fix it, or if it needs to be fixed at all.

(I consider "Rick Standard" terraforming of Mars to include sollettas over the poles to speed outgassing of CO2 in the soils and perfluorocarbon green house gases. The goal is to have a oxygen producing biosphere (for ozone) but no attempt to create a human breathable atmosphere in the near term.)

Comments backed up with references are particularily appreciated!

Warm regards, Rick.

RickSmith · 2007-03-10 22:59:07

Hi all,
I posted this question on the Mad Sci Network (where real scientists answer questions) and Dr In Koo Kim, in Physical Atmospheric Chemistry was kind enough to give this answer:

Early observations of the Martian surface indicate acidic surface lakes/oceans in the areas sampled because of the relatively uniform ratio of the concentrations of phosophorous, sulfur, and iron. However, I don't know of any observations that would clue us into why the lakes/oceans were acidic. Speculatively speaking, one cause may have been due to extreme volcanic activity in an oxidizing atmosphere. On Earth, volcanic eruptions release vast amounts of sulfur into the atmosphere. SO2, and its relatives (collectively SOx), can be oxidized in the atmosphere to form sulfuric/sulfurous acid. Precipitation can then deposit this acidic product into the oceans.
As for terraforming Mars... while we do not know for certain that there is active volcanism on Mars (although some volcanic cones suggest a possibility), compared with the past, current volcanic activity is surely diminished.
The acid already in the soil has likely undergone reactions with the soil and underlying rocks. We cannot be sure (without further study) whether or not a return of surface waters to the Martian surface will result in the same acidic oceans as previously indicated.

Warm regards, Rick

karov · 2007-03-14 08:25:15

May be we have interest to kep the terraformed Mars new oceans acidic. Thus we`d prevent excessive carbonization and sequstration of CO2 , which on the geologically dead world without tectonics and working carbo-silicate cycle is a medium term problem. Oceans kept aciddic , say by biome utilizing on its term solar energy, creates quite interesting possibilities for secondary chemotrophic bio-chains in the depths.

BTW, the lack of horizontal tectonics could be replaced by activization of volcanism - using nuclar or antimatter deposition. The shield eruptionss like Nix Olympica create enough hydrostatic pressure under the basalt layers spitted to press down carbo-rocks for thermal recicling WITHOUT subduction necessary.

Uniting the themes of the "tungsten antimatter injector" and "acidic seas" ...

Rick, I`ll find soon time to reply to all you postings -- many 10x for reactivating the forum...

RickSmith · 2007-04-10 22:52:25

Hi all, Karov.
Thanks Karov. I had assumed that we would want the Martian lakes and oceans to be as much like Earth's as we could get. I had never thought that we might prefer to have the water stay slightly acidic. Very clever.

The link below suggests that water with some sulfuric acid dissolved in it (this is called oleum) would stay liquid far below water's normal freezing temperature. Oleum would be VERY acidic.

http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=3782

Unfortunately, Oleum is extreamly unhospitable to life. Later in the article they talk about another region where clay minerals suggest the water was not that acidic and life could have lived in that environment.

Mars just keeps getting stranger and stranger!

Warm regards, Rick.

RickSmith · 2007-05-09 00:44:34

I was reading "The Solar System: Mars" and it reports that analysis of data has shown that only tiny amounts of carbonates have been found on Mars. This suggests that acid lakes / seas / oceans(?) were general and not rare exceptions.

Warm regards, Rick.

m1omg · 2007-07-05 16:13:00

Hi all, Karov.
Thanks Karov. I had assumed that we would want the Martian lakes and oceans to be as much like Earth's as we could get. I had never thought that we might prefer to have the water stay slightly acidic. Very clever.
The link below suggests that water with some sulfuric acid dissolved in it (this is called oleum) would stay liquid far below water's normal freezing temperature. Oleum would be VERY acidic.
http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=3782
Unfortunately, Oleum is extreamly unhospitable to life. Later in the article they talk about another region where clay minerals suggest the water was not that acidic and life could have lived in that environment.
Mars just keeps getting stranger and stranger!
Warm regards, Rick.

Oleum is concentraced acid not water + acid.
And some fungi could live in water with upto 25 percent of H2SO4.

m1omg · 2007-07-05 16:16:15

The acid was concentrated as the lake / sea dried up. Not typical for most of lake's lifetime.

m1omg · 2007-07-06 05:59:30

I was reading "The Solar System: Mars" and it reports that analysis of data has shown that only tiny amounts of carbonates have been found on Mars. This suggests that acid lakes / seas / oceans(?) were general and not rare exceptions.
Warm regards, Rick.

Logically.
Because when they were near dryed out they concentrted all that stuff.

m1omg · 2007-07-18 09:18:19

http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect19/Sect19_13b.html
"The stability field for Jarosite is fairly small, occuring where water present is moderately acid and mildly oxidizing. This occurs most commonly when hydrothermal solutions pass through rock bodies that contain pyrite which may then alter to Jarosite or to Limonite (gossan)...."

That water was acidic does not mean that there were battery acid seas.

m1omg · 2007-07-18 09:27:49

And carbonates are destroyed by even a slightly acidic solution.
Try to put limestone into vinegar.
And these oceans were perfectly normal, because Earth's ceans were also full of acids and hydrogen sulfide 4 bya even trough there was microbial life present.
Do not be so pseudosceptical.
There is no reason for what Mars couldn't have past life or even present life?
"Horrible UV, dessication and oxidizers"
Acetobacteria peroxidas metabolises hydrogen peroxide, water+peroxide could remain liquid even at -40 deg. Celsius and it is hygroscopic which is good on a cold desert planet.
UV and cosmic rays was proven to be reduced to acceptable levels for microorganisms growth by 1 mm of Martian dust.
And humidity is actually higher than on Earth's deserts, there is frost, haze...

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#1 2007-03-03 18:29:09

Re: Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

#2 2007-03-10 22:59:07

Re: Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

#3 2007-03-14 08:25:15

Re: Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

#4 2007-04-10 22:52:25

Re: Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

#5 2007-05-09 00:44:34

Re: Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

#6 2007-07-05 16:13:00

Re: Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

#7 2007-07-05 16:16:15

Re: Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

#8 2007-07-06 05:59:30

Re: Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

#9 2007-07-18 09:18:19

Re: Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

#10 2007-07-18 09:27:49

Re: Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming?

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