The Saturn V

Palomar · 2003-12-18 15:47:37

*Link above breaks it down by its stages (includes dimensions pages, cut-aways, lots of photos), interstages, free poster offer, photo gallery, etc.

Towering Beauty (...over 36 stories tall! Fired my imagination as a kid...still does!). I've always loved these:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap010525.html

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-01-16 20:42:39

*I almost am reluctant to ask, because the topic has probably been addressed at New Mars recently (what with all this recent talk of going back to the moon ala President Bush) and I a) either missed it (so much reading -- space-related and other -- and very busy in personal life) or b) can't recall.

If we (the U.S.) do go back to the moon, will the Saturn V be used again? Or something very similar to it? I presume the latter at least...but I don't like to make presumptions of course.

I hope it's not an "obvious" question...engineering and spacecraft design aren't my strong suit (understatement).

Sincere question!
???

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-01-17 02:16:18

This is going to sound trollish, not meant to, but...

Why is everybody still so obsessed with the Saturn V?
Granted it's a beautiful piece of hi-tech machinery, but it's also a 30-40 years old design, sure we can do better than that today? Or not?
Serious question: What's so special about Satun V?

Palomar · 2004-01-17 06:26:24

This is going to sound trollish, not meant to, but...
Why is everybody still so obsessed with the Saturn V?
Granted it's a beautiful piece of hi-tech machinery, but it's also a 30-40 years old design, sure we can do better than that today? Or not?
Serious question: What's so special about Satun V?

*Well, I can't answer for anyone but myself of course.

It's different, I suppose, for people who saw the moon-shots live on television (I was a little kid; I do remember) versus only having seen it in video clips (folks who are younger and either weren't even born at the time or a bit younger than me -- alive at the time but don't recall it at all). To have seen these things take off, live...well, it's hard to describe the euphoria and awe.

I've certainly seen other photos and video clips of other rockets (whatever their function). The Saturn V was majestic; it had class and style. Very distinct from all those other ho-hum looking rockets. The white and black design, the slim and graceful outline...

That's just me. I witnessed these things blasting off on live television. I saw the camera pans of them glittering in the sunlight, as they were slowly rolled out onto the launch pad. Especially the ground camera shots, when you know your neck would be straining to see its top. I suppose it's similar to car enthusiasts who "ooooo" and "aaaaahh" over a 1955 Cadillac or 1962 Corvette; they're in love with the design, the beauty, the memories associated with it, etc. (no, I'm not a car enthusiast myself). There is sentiment attached as well: The late 1960s and early 1970s were so optimistic..."the sky is the limit," space-related themes were prevalent; it was really heady. I'm glad I remember it, even though I was only 5 in 1970. I wish I could describe it better...I wish everyone who is interested in space exploration had experienced (and remembered) it.

There's nothing like the Saturn V.

Anyway, I was more curious about the technology of the rockets to be used in going back to the moon under Bush's new plan...I presume they'll have to be *multi-stage* and etc., at least very similar to the Saturn V design; but I don't know. I'm not suggesting they do return to the Saturn V; I'm just wondering how similar the next moon-shot rockets may or *may not* be.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-01-17 06:48:49

There's a story running on Slashdot about one of the Saturns, it needs 5mil to be restoed (the one in Huntsville)

(Read /. articles at +3, to evade the gazillion trolls...)
[http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl? … 34&tid=160]Article

Rxke · 2004-01-17 06:53:12

BTW I hope i didn't hurt you feelings, Cindy, i *do* ealise the Saturns were an awesome piece of machinery, and even at my age (34) i still get shivers down my spine seeing footage of a launch of *any* of them... They were unique.

(and now i eally have to go and dismantle my keyboard, having major poblems getting the 'r' key woking eliably. (can you tell?)

Edit: There, that'd fix it! *Bliss* 15 minutes of work and a brand new keyboard!

BTW: 'amazing' what you find in a keyboard... after years of all-night film-editing-netsurfing-paperwriting etc... Urgh... it's disgusting.

Palomar · 2004-01-17 15:30:27

Rik: "BTW I hope i didn't hurt you feelings, Cindy, i *do* realise..."

*No, you didn't hurt my feelings. I was puzzled for a minute, however; you know, you're used to your own sentiments about something and then someone questions it (politely and sincerely, as you did) and it sort of throws you into a mind scramble like, "Huh?"

Rik: "BTW: 'amazing' what you find in a keyboard... after years of all-night film-editing-netsurfing-paperwriting etc... Urgh... it's disgusting."

BGD: "Yeap, Saturn V was an astonishing piece of engineering... And it still is today, i would say. Rik, i once found some Tic-Tacs in my keyboard..."

*Lol. There were a few toast crumbs in my keyboard. Tipped it over, tap - tap - tap. Clean.

--Cindy

dicktice · 2004-01-17 16:33:49

What I need to know, before going out on a limb with a dumb proposal regarding the SST is:
(1) How much of the "60% remaining" hardware is already built, ready to be Space-Shuttled up there to complete?
(2) Why can't this hardware be "cut down" into smaller pieces, for Soyuz unmanned delivery? within the timeframe required for, anticipating (unthinkable, but conceivable) failure of any or all three remaining Shuttles:
(3) Launching Mars First hardware in pieces suitable for Soyuz unmanned delivery, for assembly by SST crews gradually increased by Soyuz TMA launches, because of increasing number of available "lifeboats" in parking orbits--as Progress vehicles are now?
(4) Assemble SST/Moon shuttles, capable of landing and taking off, using unmanned fuel caches/habitats to get back to the SST routinely?
(5) Enlist the increasingly sophisticated Chinese "Soyuz follow-on" launcher/command/ service configuration(s) in support of (3) and (4)?
In other words, make use of what we (of Earth) already have in LEO, past knowhow, and future best-of-that-knowhow amalgamated into an international rational, two decades long effort run along the lines of the EU (say) where members are added as they become interested and able to participate according to their own unique capabilities. (Why not, something like this?)

Martian Apollo · 2004-01-17 19:26:58

It was the accomplishment of a dream. It was built for a purpose, and it did it well. We need to get back to that place!

~Eternal~ · 2004-01-17 21:20:00

I actually have never heard of the Saturns, what where there purposes?

Rxke · 2004-01-18 02:29:11

*blink*

~Eternal~, you're kidding? It was the huge rocket that launched the Apollo missions. The black-and-white paintjob one.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-01-24 06:04:00

I agree with Cindy about the old Saturn V. It was an awe-inspiring monster of a machine and a technological wonder.
If I remember correctly, the Saturn Vs never failed. Right off the drawing board, they did everything they were asked to do ... and in fine style. As most of you are probably well aware, the Apollo XII Saturn V was struck by lightning a minute or two (I believe) into its flight and still never missed a beat! The computer displays went nuts and somebody had to push a 'reset' button but the rocket itself carried on as if nothing had happened.
That was one reliable vehicle!

And I get emotional too every time I see a film clip of one of the launches. When my family and I visited the Kennedy Space Center in Florida, they herded us into a launch control room full of consoles. After a brief talk, they projected a movie of the Apollo XI lift-off onto a large screen, with a nice loud sound track!
By the end, I must have had something in my eyes because I couldn't see clearly ... !
It was stirring stuff.
Yup .. I love the Saturn V too.

Palomar · 2004-01-28 12:33:27

I agree with Cindy about the old Saturn V. It was an awe-inspiring monster of a machine and a technological wonder.
If I remember correctly, the Saturn Vs never failed. Right off the drawing board, they did everything they were asked to do ... and in fine style. As most of you are probably well aware, the Apollo XII Saturn V was struck by lightning a minute or two (I believe) into its flight and still never missed a beat! The computer displays went nuts and somebody had to push a 'reset' button but the rocket itself carried on as if nothing had happened.
That was one reliable vehicle!
And I get emotional too every time I see a film clip of one of the launches. When my family and I visited the Kennedy Space Center in Florida, they herded us into a launch control room full of consoles. After a brief talk, they projected a movie of the Apollo XI lift-off onto a large screen, with a nice loud sound track!
By the end, I must have had something in my eyes because I couldn't see clearly ... !
It was stirring stuff.
Yup .. I love the Saturn V too.

*Hi Shaun.

Yep.

[http://www.dickgordon.com/ApolloXIIPrint.html]Apollo 12

A space museum in Alamogordo (approximately 70 miles NE of my city) has a variety of Apollo-era memorabilia (they once had a glove on display worn by Neil Armstrong during Apollo 11). Other memorabilia too, of course. They also have a selection of rocket launches (including non-Apollo) one can view by pressing the appropriate button. My husband and I have been there twice (I've been there 3 times actually, the first in 1982 with family), and on each occasion most people were hitting the button to play the Apollo 11 launch with lots of favorable comments about Saturn V. It's a small museum, but jam-packed with lots of cool stuff (including a couple of moon rocks):

[http://www.spacefame.org/]NM Museum of Space History

BTW, I'm still waiting on Barnes & Noble to get my DVD of "The Mighty Saturns I & IB" in for me. It's nearly 3 hours long, I can't wait.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-02-04 14:05:37

*I'm going through the photos at [http://www.apolloarchive.com]www.apolloarchive.com (recommended by Josh in "New Discoveries *2*" thread), and I have a question about the boilerplate. Were the Saturn V's stacked on top of the boilerplate to begin with? I would presume so; I can't imagine it was stacked and then lifted atop the boilerplate via crane, but I have no idea...I suppose I'll get my answer when (and if) Barnes & Noble ever gets that DVD collection I ordered in (the slow-pokes):

[http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Histo … 9P-683.jpg]Click

--Cindy

P.S.: Also, during launch (video feed and still shots) you can see frothy-looking white material on the sides of the Saturn V...is that coolant (can see a bit of it in this photo)?

[http://techcenter.davidson.k12.nc.us/Gr … agepic.jpg]Liftoff

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-05 07:36:49

Hi Cindy!
I believe that frothy looking white stuff is condensation of water vapour in the air.
The Saturn Vs ran on liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, which were kept in insulated tanks. But of course the insulation was imperfect and allowed some of the fuel to warm up and return to its gaseous form.
As I understand it, there were 'bleed-valves' which allowed for a release of these gradually warming cryogenic fuels before their expansion blew up the tanks! The still-very-cold-but-now-gaseous fuel leaking out of the bleed-valves came into contact with the surrounding air and caused the water vapour in it to condense into tiny droplets or even ice crystals.
I'm sure you must have seen slabs of ice vibrating loose from the outside of a Saturn V during films of their launch, too(?). All part of the same thing ... condensation of the humidity in the air on a cold surface.

Palomar · 2004-02-05 09:49:15

*Okay, thanks for the explanation Shaun.

You asked: "I'm sure you must have seen slabs of ice vibrating loose from the outside of a Saturn V during films of their launch, too(?)."

*Yep, I have!

I found this at space.com's "Astronotes" feature for February 5 (it's an ongoing feature, updated daily with older articles pushed down...and on that basis won't directly link to it):

***

February 5

Campaign to Save Apollo Launch Tower Underway

(collectSPACE.com) -- A team of space history enthusiasts have united over recent months to seek to preserve the Launch Umbilical Tower (LUT) from which Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins launched to the Moon on America's first lunar landing mission.

The Space Preservation Society, which was planning a national campaign to coincide with the 35th anniversary of Apollo 11 this July, was surprised this week to learn from NASA that work to scrap the tower was slated to start on Thursday.

"A contractor is currently in place to dispose of [the tower]," explained Ross Tierney, Chief Operating Officer of the SPS in a statement released to the press. "Our team must align with the National Trust for Historic Preservation, the Smithsonian Institution or similar group and we need to find a donor who can compensate the contractor for stopping their work by Thursday or the cutting torches will be lit."

"If we do not do this now, the LUT will be demolished and will be lost forever," said Tierney.

The Apollo Launch Umbilical Towers (LUTs) were vertical factories used to construct and prepare Saturn V rockets for their flights to the Moon.

The Society has proposed an Apollo National Monument based around the restored tower and located at Kennedy Space Center for inspirational and educational purposes. It is estimated the project will cost between $40 and $80 million to complete.

The group has started a petition drive to show public support for their intiative: [http://www.petitiononline.com/LUT/]http://www.petitiononline.com/LUT/

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-06 02:35:15

A noble cause.

Michael Bloxham · 2004-02-06 02:58:12

Hey, just to keep up my perceived habit of changing subjects... What about the Russian N1 (or G1) rocket? An N1 launch? Now that would have been spectacular to watch! Okay, I guess this last question is more along the lines of the awe inspiring nature of rockets, and not specifically the Saturn V, but I've noticed that some rockets (the Ariane, maybe?) do not produce giant plumes of exhaust, but only tiny blue flames and shimmering heat waves. Now when I first saw such a rocket launch, it struck me as impossibly odd looking, like a mouse lifting an elephant. And like the curious nature of micro-gravity activities, I couldn't quite get my head around it.

What kind of explosive fuel mixture produces such a spectacle ??? ?

Palomar · 2004-02-06 11:55:20

*My DVD collection of "The Mighty Saturns I and IB" came in today!

I've got a 4-day weekend, decided to stroll into Barnes & Noble and inquire...finally, it came in. I commented to the clerk (mid-20s), "They were such awesome rockets." He smiled, looked closer at the DVD and asked what exactly they were about. I told him, "Apollo" and we chatted a few seconds. I've found people generally do perk up quite a bit when space exploration is mentioned. Reminds me of going to see "Apollo 13" in 1995 with my husband; the theater was packed and we had to sit in the very front row. That was fine with me -- the thrill of the launch all over again, upclose and on that huge screen! Most everyone was riveted to the screen, throughout the entire film...seldom have I *not* seen people up and down to go to the concession stand or restrooms frequently. Most folks stayed in their seats. Everyone was tense during re-entry, and when the chutes popped open and we knew everything was going to be okay (yes, yes...we knew 25 years prior that they made it back okay, but you know how it goes when you get wrapped up in a movie...) lots of people in the audience clapped, whooped, etc.

[http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B … 72-8672833]DVD

The DVD includes (from the back of the box):

~Original documentary detailing the history of the Saturn I and IB rockets

~Spectacular multi-angle footage from every launch

~Extensive full-duration pad camera footage of the Apollo 7 launch

~Rare onboard camera pod footage and much more

Total running time is 6 hours.

I'm ready for Saturn V overkill! My husband is interested in watching it, too.

Shaun wrote (in a different thread):
"...the first stage of the Saturn V. At burn-out, the Saturn V's first stage had lifted the rest of the rocket to an altitude of 200,000 feet (38 miles) and given it a velocity of 6000 mph (roughly 8 times the speed of sound at sea-level)."

*Wow, I really envy your knowledge. Lots of information about the Saturn V I've tried to read is so high-tech (beyond me); I'm hoping the DVD will make up for it.

By the way, I don't mind if the topic swerves a bit (Michael's post), so long as it stays on rockets please. Not that I know much about rockets, of course...

I was remembering Apollo 11, having just turned 4 years old and being so overwhelmed by it all (in a good way of course). The astronauts in their white suits with their shiny suitcases (that's how I thought of them) looked like gods. As a little kid I was rather intimidated by adults anyway (I think most kids that age are, to a point). I remember looking at the Saturn V rocket; I was so awed by it, my mind sort of blanked out and I just kept staring, couldn't take my eyes off of it -- I couldn't process all of my intense emotions and impressions of it (I was just a little kid remember!). It was gargantuan, powerful, mysterious...it could take us anywhere we wanted to go! (or so I thought, lol)

I remember getting a blanket off my bed, running back into the living room, tossing it up over my father's recliner chair and between the end-table, crawling under it, pretending it was my space capsule and I was going to the moon too. We had the TV on and I'd pretend I was talking to Mission Control, and they to me. :laugh:

Guess I should end my stroll down memory lane here...

--Cindy

Byron · 2004-02-06 12:42:49

I was remembering Apollo 11, having just turned 4 years old and being so overwhelmed by it all (in a good way of course). The astronauts in their white suits with their shiny suitcases (that's how I thought of them) looked like gods. As a little kid I was rather intimidated by adults anyway (I think most kids that age are, to a point). I remember looking at the Saturn V rocket; I was so awed by it, my mind sort of blanked out and I just kept staring, couldn't take my eyes off of it -- I couldn't process all of my intense emotions and impressions of it (I was just a little kid remember!). It was gargantuan, powerful, mysterious...it could take us anywhere we wanted to go! (or so I thought, lol)
I remember getting a blanket off my bed, running back into the living room, tossing it up over my father's recliner chair and between the end-table, crawling under it, pretending it was my space capsule and I was going to the moon too. We had the TV on and I'd pretend I was talking to Mission Control, and they to me.
Guess I should end my stroll down memory lane here...

Hey, that's a pretty cool memory Unfortunately I was just a tad too young to remember most of the Saturn launches, but I *do* remember one, and I recall being mesmerized by the awesome power of the rocket taking off on the TV

Being a Florida resident, I have made several visits to the Kennedy Space Center, and part of the tour is a simulated takeoff, which is pretty cool...I got goosebumps the last time I went..lol. Also, just a few years ago, they constructed a huge hanger to house the Saturn V they have on display...it's like looking at a skyscraper lying on its side. Each of the five engines are *enormous*...it's just difficult to imagine the sheer amount of thrust coming out of those things...blows away the Shuttle, that's for sure...lol.

B

Palomar · 2004-02-06 15:04:46

*Um...the DVD collection I recently bought and picked up today is really awesome, but somewhere along the line I either misunderstood something or got a wrong impression somehow.

The DVD focuses only on Saturn I and IB, i.e. the rocket program(s) -predating- Saturn V.

I was under the distinct impression that this collection was a combination of both -- as in both the preliminaries to Saturn V (I and IB) -and- Saturn V. Perhaps I confused "Saturn V stacking" from the description for the Apollo 11 DVD collection by the same company (which I don't own).

Well...I am going to keep it. I must stay it is very impressive; there is a lot of information about the Saturn program, starting with Jupiter in the late 1950s until Apollo-Soyuz. However, Saturn V is not the main focus of this DVD set at all.

The engineers, scientists, developments, etc., are very well documented. Thanks to all the really terrific posts I've read (or tried to read as was the case sometimes) over these past nearly 2 years here at New Mars I feel I did understand the majority of the information (massive!) shared in the 1st disc (narrated; the other 2 are simply devoted to multiple-angle video of Saturn I and IB launches).

Well. Not much about Saturn V, though. Thank goodness I have videotape of Apollo 11 and 13, including launches.

I am disappointed to an extent, that Saturn V wasn't incorporated into this DVD collection as I certainly thought was the case...but it really is a splendid, educational DVD collection regardless and I'm glad to have it in my collection.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-02-11 13:14:24

Being a Florida resident, I have made several visits to the Kennedy Space Center, and part of the tour is a simulated takeoff, which is pretty cool...I got goosebumps the last time I went..lol. Also, just a few years ago, they constructed a huge hanger to house the Saturn V they have on display...it's like looking at a skyscraper lying on its side. Each of the five engines are *enormous*...it's just difficult to imagine the sheer amount of thrust coming out of those things...blows away the Shuttle, that's for sure...lol.
B

*I'm coming to Florida. Will get some ropes, strap it to the top of my car, get Oversize Load trucks to escort me back home, set it up in my back yard (upright)...! :laugh:

Actually, Houston is much closer...

Seriously, though...my husband and I watched the movie "Apollo 13" the other evening (I'm also currently reading 2 books about that mission). I know the launch in the movie was computer simulation (for the most part?), but I have a question:

Shortly after the initial blast of fire from the engines (very close camera angle), it seems the flames and smoke which roared outward suddenly *reversed* -- as if being sucked back toward the engines. Is that "artistic license" in the movie or did the flames and smoke really behave that way? I've seen a lot of footage of authentic launches of the actual missions, but I don't really recall seeing THAT.

Comments?

--Cindy

Byron · 2004-02-11 13:31:45

Being a Florida resident, I have made several visits to the Kennedy Space Center, and part of the tour is a simulated takeoff, which is pretty cool...I got goosebumps the last time I went..lol. Also, just a few years ago, they constructed a huge hanger to house the Saturn V they have on display...it's like looking at a skyscraper lying on its side. Each of the five engines are *enormous*...it's just difficult to imagine the sheer amount of thrust coming out of those things...blows away the Shuttle, that's for sure...lol.
B
*I'm coming to Florida. Will get some ropes, strap it to the top of my car, get Oversize Load trucks to escort me back home, set it up in my back yard (upright)...! :laugh:
Seriously, though...my husband and I watched the movie "Apollo 13" the other evening (I'm also currently reading 2 books about that mission). I know the launch in the movie was computer simulation (for the most part?), but I have a question:
Shortly after the initial blast of fire from the engines (very close camera angle), it seems the flames and smoke which roared outward suddenly *reversed* -- as if being sucked back toward the engines. Is that "artistic license" in the movie or did the flames and smoke really behave that way? I've seen a lot of footage of authentic launches of the actual missions, but I don't really recall seeing THAT.
Comments?
--Cindy

Hehehe...that'd be a sight to see on the interstate, a Saturn V strapped to the top of a tiny car...lol...it'd be like an ant carrying a tree on its back...

As for what you saw in that movie, I'd have to look at that actual clip to tell you for sure, but what you saw was probably an editing glitch (happens all the time), or it could have been a deliberate trick (like running the film backward for a sec or 2) for effect. Hmm, now you got me curious about it now...might have to rent it and check it out for myself...lol.

B

Palomar · 2004-02-11 14:35:55

*Geez Byron...if I didn't know any better, I'd suspect you are trying to discourage my proposed adventure. ::sniff, sniff:: (hurt feelings). :;): I know trying to get my car into a service station with the Saturn V strapped to it might be a bit difficult, but hey...where there's a will there's a way, right?

Look what I found!!

[http://www.spacecraftfilms.com/]The Mighty Saturns: **SATURN V**

Devoted exclusively to Saturn V...with every Saturn V launch. Due for release this spring...oh, hurry up!

(I've already got "The Mighty Saturns: I and IB" which -- as posted previously -- I thought was going to contain images, information and etc about Saturn V too...but doesn't <FROWN>...misunderstanding somewhere).

Also,

[http://www.spacecraftfilms.com/production.html]Apollo 13 in production

Good, now I can feast my eyes on astrostudmuffins Lovell and Swigert...

--Cindy :laugh:

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