International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

Dayton3 · 2004-12-05 12:57:30

I think any future manned Mars program the U.S. participates in should, at least in the beginning be a solely American program.

Because I believe that American public support for the project will decline as international involvement grows.

And be honest, does ESA, the Japanese, Chinese, or Russians have any technology or experience in manned space exploration that the United States really lacks?

Sure the Russians kept astronauts up for a year or so at a time, but we've had some up for six months. And I've always heard that there is little to be learned about long duration stays after the six month mark.

GCNRevenger · 2004-12-05 13:26:39

Pretty much, yeah. Russia has more recent capabilities of large rockets that we don't, but otherwise for major mission componets (ESA can chip in for science gear in return for data or a seat on a mission maybe) its just a question of economics.

PurduesUSAFguy · 2004-12-05 15:39:43

Completely agree. Internationalizing the program would be a mistake of epic proportions.

By Americans, For Americans. (Or by Euros for Euros, or by Chinese for chinese for a worst case scenario)

Palomar · 2004-12-05 17:21:42

Completely agree. Internationalizing the program would be a mistake of epic proportions.
By Americans, For Americans. (Or by Euros for Euros, or by Chinese for chinese for a worst case scenario)

*I agree (albeit reluctantly). It seems international cooperation works rather well as astronomical programs go (such as radio telescope linkups between various nations with data flowing to one information processing site; and various interplanetary probes too, etc.); but after some stuff I've read over the years...I'm sorry to say I'm growing increasingly skeptical that international cooperation regarding space exploration and colonization will work.

Nationalism -will- likely come to the fore sooner or later (probably sooner, and no -- not just the U.S. doing this). Differing philosophies, agendas, goals...

Hopefully I'll be proven wrong, though.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-12-05 22:17:30

Select first generation of each race or national that would want representation on such a mission from American citizens and be done with the whole question of international support.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-12-05 22:42:55

To be honest I think its a sad sign of the time that someone can seriously suggest that international cooperation is not worth the effort for human manned missions. Sure there are a lot of obstacles to overcome (one country suddenly reducing the amount of support for a project that has to be taken up by other countries etc). But if all the countries around the world cooperated properly then we'd have manned missions flying every week - imagine the best scientists and engineers from around the world working together on design projects, and the best from around the world building these projects.

Getting regular manned missions increases mans scientific knowledge, which has a knock on effect for everyone. If I for example am in the middle of a project or some research I don't restrict myself to asking people from England for advice, I'll ask anyone who has the right answer regardless of country of origin.

And be honest, does ESA, the Japanese, Chinese, or Russians have any technology or experience in manned space exploration that the United States really lacks?

Did the US not get that experience though from people that came from outside the US originally?

It will be a sad day when countries can not even cooperate on even scientific projects, what'll be next... New Mars USA, New Mars UK, New Mars Africa....

Graeme

SpaceNut · 2004-12-08 08:41:42

While international cooperation maybe out there is a chance that national space industry companies may fair better if they could.
Space-industry firms may join forces

Military, government, education and space-industry leaders will gather in Denver today for the Colorado Space Rendezvous, an event aimed at spurring collaboration in the state to pursue important space contracts and projects.

C M Edwards · 2004-12-08 11:37:48

if all the countries around the world cooperated properly then we'd have manned missions flying every week

And when that happens, I'm sure that I will lose all reservations about international cooperation on individual space missions...

Of course, there is hope as pointed out by Spacenut:

Military, government, education and space-industry leaders will gather in Denver today for the Colorado Space Rendezvous, an event aimed at spurring collaboration in the state to pursue important space contracts and projects.

It's important to note that this event is statewide only. It's not national, or international. However, given the apparent gradually decreasing efficiency of progressively large organizations, perhaps a national or international organization would be less desirable.

MarsDog · 2004-12-09 01:33:05

The race to Mars is military and nationalistic. When the USA flag is blowing in the Martian breeze, there will be tears in the eyes of USA citizens. It will be given as an example of how great the American system and people are.

USA will want to build a monument to its greatness, freeze this time in history. If the Chinese or Russians get there first, it will be taken as the beginning of the end of the American global empire.

Bigger deficits or not, the American image is on the line.

SpaceNut · 2004-12-09 06:10:36

The worst part of that senario is that there will be the doubters that will say that it is all faked, that they never went and it will appear in the eyes of every American as Apollo did. We went how many times and that sentiment is still possible in some peoples eyes (not just American). Can we think that even after a few such missions to mars that it will be any different.
To make any difference we must go to stay and there must be a news channel dedicated to live records of all events for the vision if we are to succeed bloppers and all. And some where alone the line the common, non specialist, man and woman must be allowed to go if Nasa wants continued any sugnificant support level for any future programs.

SpaceNut · 2004-12-09 07:37:13

News on previous post of the Space-industry firms may join forces. Space-related firms aim high for future

Business and government leaders discussed their concerns about an aging workforce and a lack of collaboration in the state at a space-industry meeting that drew 225 people Wednesday to the Colorado History Museum.

Space industry slows Large companies' growth to continue in 2005, but pace of hiring to slacken

Colorado's space industry remains a bright spot in the state's otherwise sluggish economy, but key aerospace contractors here forecast a slowdown in their job hiring in 2005.
Big companies still anticipate adding to their payrolls. But the hiring pace is expected to moderate from what, in some cases, has been rapid growth, as work wraps up on contracts and companies await word from Uncle Sam on pending deals.
Colorado's space industry remains a bright spot in the state's otherwise sluggish economy, but key aerospace contractors here forecast a slowdown in their job hiring in 2005.
Big companies still anticipate adding to their payrolls. But the hiring pace is expected to moderate from what, in some cases, has been rapid growth, as work wraps up on contracts and companies await word from Uncle Sam on pending deals.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-12-09 08:46:10

The race to Mars is military and nationalistic. When the USA flag is blowing in the Martian breeze, there will be tears in the eyes of USA citizens. It will be given as an example of how great the American system and people are.
USA will want to build a monument to its greatness, freeze this time in history. If the Chinese or Russians get there first, it will be taken as the beginning of the end of the American global empire.
Bigger deficits or not, the American image is on the line.

*This thread should probably have been in Free Chat the way its going*

Then we've not advanced at all, decades after the start of the space race and we're still not even on the home stretch. There is nothing to be gained from one country (whoever they are, not just the US) planting a flag and that country claiming the planet for its own. How many wars have we had over little bits of land on Earth, imagine the wars from some country claiming an entire planet.

The type of attitude that fears the help of other countries is an attitude that could result in serious problems for future space exploration.

Graeme

GCNRevenger · 2004-12-09 09:05:44

Sooo nationalism is a bad thing Graeme?

I can't say as I agree... humanity is still to large degree orderd by nationality, and there is nothing wrong with this.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-12-09 09:09:45

Sooo nationalism is a bad thing Graeme?

No there is nothing wrong with nationalism/patriatism etc., but there is something wrong with excluding every other country than your own when your working on major projects.

I'm proud to be English, but that does not mean when I'm cooking a pizza I'll only use English cheese

Graeme

GCNRevenger · 2004-12-09 09:27:54

Sooo nationalism is a bad thing Graeme?
No there is nothing wrong with nationalism/patriatism etc., but there is something wrong with excluding every other country than your own when your working on major projects.

Why not? If we did that, it would come at the sociological/political cost of the mission no longer being our own. That is a high price to pay for a mission with nationalistic motives.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-12-09 09:34:32

So why does the mission have to have nationalistic motives?

Graeme

Cobra Commander · 2004-12-09 09:35:04

International cooperation that furthers a nation's mission can be desireable. Tailoring the mission to attract international partners is folly.

SpaceNut · 2004-12-09 09:40:55

But then you also have to pick your partners carefully since there are the security reasons to think of as well.

GCNRevenger · 2004-12-09 09:44:03

So why does the mission have to have nationalistic motives?
Graeme

Because nations need somthing to feel proud about, as much or more then individuals. And since space missions are so expensive that they require national investment, then the nation has a right to expect a return on that investment...

International cooperation can be bennefical from a technical or economic standpoint, but never from a nationalistic one. The pros of technology and money being donated must be quite large to justify the con of the cost of national pride.

As far as a Lunar or Mars program goes, it does not apear that anyone will make such a donation to America. Even the ISS is one-sided.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-12-09 09:58:02

So because two countries cooperate there is no longer anything to be proud of if it works?

Graeme

Cobra Commander · 2004-12-09 10:02:47

So because two countries cooperate there is no longer anything to be proud of if it works?

It depends on whether they are cooperating because they both want to do the same thing, or if one partner alters what it's trying to do for the sole purpose of attracting the other partner.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-12-09 10:07:24

It depends on whether they are cooperating because they both want to do the same thing, or if one partner alters what it's trying to do for the sole purpose of attracting the other partner.

I was talking along the lines of countries cooperating on missions with the same end goal. If one partner changes its plans to attract another country it must be in need of that partner to progress or it would not be looking for anyone else to help in the first place.

We have to be careful of that old saying "don't cut off your nose to spite your face." I think it applies here :;):

Graeme

GCNRevenger · 2004-12-09 10:11:04

So because two countries cooperate there is no longer anything to be proud of if it works?

There is less to be proud of if the goal of the mission is national achievement, yes.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-12-09 10:13:02

I don't think we should be going to space just to posture and strut on the world stage though, I think we should be exploring space for science and curiosity.

Graeme

Cobra Commander · 2004-12-09 10:14:30

I was talking along the lines of countries cooperating on missions with the same end goal. If one partner changes its plans to attract another country it must be in need of that partner to progress or it would not be looking for anyone else to help in the first place.

I agree overall, my concern is that rather than one nation (say the US for example) deciding on a Mars mission with specific goals then working with nations eager to help reach those goals, that instead we'd plan a mission with attracting international support as a major deciding factor from the outset, weighed equally or more heavily than other factors. The end result would be a chaotic, expensive, slow slog that accomplishes next to nothing.

Not that I don't have my own biases in the matter, but I would very much like to see the US, Britain and Australia undertake a joint mission.

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#1 2004-12-05 12:57:30

Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

#2 2004-12-05 13:26:39

Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

#3 2004-12-05 15:39:43

Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

#4 2004-12-05 17:21:42

Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

#5 2004-12-05 22:17:30

Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

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Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

#7 2004-12-08 08:41:42

Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

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Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

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Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

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Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

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Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

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Re: International Cooperation-Not Worth The Effort? - Don't Think it is

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