Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-17 19:37:11

We're underway ... we'll be running until the top of the hour.

More attendees are welcome.

kbd512 and GW Johnson are solving the Starship Stage Separation problem.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-06 18:48:25

Our last previous Google Meeting was on December 17th.

We've had a breather to get through the holidays.

I'll open the waiting room a minute or two before the usual start time: 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire and "way too late" UTC time.

There are three topics that are potentially of interest, and others may show up ...

1) GW Johnson does not yet have his YouTube set up.... I'd like to see that happen tomorrow night
2) Our forum software is receiving updates to help it run with modern software ...
3) The upcoming NSS meeting will feature Axiom Space

If RobertDyck is able to join we can discuss gold mining .... I caught part of another Discovery Channel Gold Rush episode this evening.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-07 20:17:18

We have restarted the Google Meeting.....

If anyone is interested in joining, you are welcome to knock on the meeting room door.

Use the link at the top of this topic.

***
Post meeting notes:

Thanks to kbd512 for opening a session on Windows 11 to help us review various procedures on Windows 10.

Thanks to GW Johnson for showing us the exrocketman1 channel on YouTube, where a video from 12 years ago shows a Lionel train running after 59 years of service.

We learned that kdb512 has created a youTube channel, and with any luck there'll be a video up there soon.

There may even be a brand new channel for GW Johnson, and we have hopes that a video will show up there soon as well.

We found a video created by the Mars Society for a talk that Dr. Johnson gave at the 16th Mars Society Convention.

You can see that video by entering a search for gwj5886.

There is a chance the new channel will also have that name, but at this point (if it exists) it does not have any videos.

Reminder... the Mars Society has it's own channel: @ThgeMarsSociety

It shows up if you search for themarssociety

(th)

GW Johnson · 2024-01-07 21:12:53

Success! When I sign in with my email and its password, Youtube takes me to the Exrocketman1 channel. That one (and only one) is my Youtube channel. There was 1 video posted there from years ago (by my son). It shows my 1952-vintage Lionel electric steam train set running.

As of tonight, there are now 3 more videos on that same site. I managed to post the Mars rocket hopper MP4 video of the slide presentation, and then MP4's of the rocket hopper/orbit taxi presentation, and the surface truck train presentation. They are all up there, and I played them. They work.

GW

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-13 21:20:08

Last week's Google Meeting was a success, as shown by Post #54

Thanks go to kbd512 (again) for helping us through a variety of pesky issues.

The next meeting opportunity is Sunday January 14 ... same time, same place ... I'll open the waiting room at 7 PM Houston time, 8 PM New Hampshire time, and way-too-late UTC.

The main issue I'm hoping we can work on tomorrow is the mouse. According to ChatGPT4, there may be a setting that allows the mouse to show up in the video. If we can find that setting, and if it works on Dr. Johnson's computer, then I'm hoping it will help our viewers to follow along as the explanation follows along with the slides.

There may be other subjects that will come up.

All NewMars members are welcome to attend. Just click on the link in Post #1 of this topic.

I'll also have this topic open during the meeting, in case someone has a problem connecting.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-14 18:57:06

The Waiting Room is open for tonight's Google Meeting.

If all goes well, and everyone is able to attend, we'll discover how to use the mouse in PowerPoint video.

Update after meeting ...

GW Johnson and worked on PowerPoint presentation ... After study of the help text, and consulting the Internet, we ended up with a YouTube video to study, to help set the PowerPoint settings to allow the mouse to be visible. It certainly looks as though this capability is available, so with any luck (and a bit of experimentation) we should be able to add mouse movement to the YouTube presentations on @Exrocketman1.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2024-01-15 11:19:59

So far, I have made a pointer visible in Powerpoint's presentation mode, but NOT within Powerpoint's "record" mode.

GW

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-21 19:03:59

Google Meeting Room is open. The Zoom one is not.

Well! Another ** very ** interesting meeting !!!

Topics covered included metal fatigue for various alloys, and a deep dive into aircraft wing testing, followed by kit build of a design by Burt Rutan.

Thanks to YouTube videos we were able to follow a gent who build a four person pusher aircraft over a 15 year period, and then flew (and landed) the aircraft with success.

We capped the evening with a Google Maps visit to Boca Chica and the Starship facilities.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-28 18:59:09

The Google meeting waiting room will be open in a couple of minutes.

Update: The waiting room is open. I am not expecting anyone, but any NewMars member is welcome to stop by.

Just click on the link at the top of this topic.

kbd512 and I are holding the fort. Others are welcome.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-28 20:44:17

For kbd512 ... the system froze

Coming back up

Back up

And! we decided to close the meeting for this week.

This was another ** really ** interesting session.

We started with one of Void's posts and covered a lot of ground, as well as under ground, above ground and wherever else seemed appropriate.

It appears that working solar cells were invented and patented in 1906 (or so) .... Void provided a link to the story.

We also started a session with ChatGPT4 and DALL-E to show images of kbd512's idea for a wind turbine, but my system crashed under the workload of multiple Chromium sessions, plus Google Meeting plus ChatGPT4 ... that combination was just too much.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-04 19:00:10

Google Meeting is open

https://www.infographicszone.com/wp-con … lling1.jpg

Looking at parts of oil rig

Used rigs for sale:

https://oilrigsnow.com/

kbd512 estimates that a rig weighing as little as 1000 tons, and certainly 1500 tons could drill a mile down.

The items not included are power source and transport machinery.

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-11 07:26:20

Today is Super Bowl Sunday in the US ...

The organizers of the event are hoping to reach a goal of 150,000,000 viewers.

If achieved, that viewership would set a record.

The event is of interest to many because of the high level of sports activity on offer.

However, for many, the half time show, and the advertisements during the entire event, are a major attraction.

This is one of the few activities left that Americans can disagree on peacefully.

There are some who will watch the event to see how the Stock Market will fare in the coming year.

The "Super Bowl stock indicator" was (apparently) invented by a sports writer, and it had a good run before the Internet came along. Now it appears to be worthless as an indicator of anything.

In any case, the weekly Google Meeting will NOT be held this week.

May the best team win, and may the Stock Market go up or down in the coming year.

Hopefully NewMars will be along for the ride.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-12 10:31:12

In lieu of the NewMars Google meeting yesterday, the American National Football League, and countless advertisers, put on an extravaganza for many millions of watchers. According to reports, folks around the world were tuned in.

As entertainment, the event was in the upper tier of what humans are able to offer at this point.

However, this post is about the nature of human performance at the highest level.

There are many sports writers who are going to be earning their salaries over coming weeks and months, filling gigabytes of storage with their observations and reflections. I just read a piece by one of those writers, who made a number of observations about the winning quarterback, and quoted the coach as well as the quarterback. The sports writer drew attention to leadership qualities that allowed the team to persist in the face of daunting circumstances.

The connection to Mars seems (to me at least) straight forward .... it is going to take world class leadership to reach Mars at all, and to persist there for any length of time. The trouble plagued first Starship launch was an example of a fumble in the final push to achieve a touchdown. A strong, capable leader is able to recover from such a failure and provide the inspiration to enable a team of human beings to try again and perform at a higher level.

We (humans) are going to need a LOT of such leaders, to pull off the state of affairs this forum (as part of the Mars Society) is intended to assist.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-18 07:16:11

It is Sunday at NewMars, and we have the opportunity to meet with Google Meeting.

I'm planning to open the Waiting Room at the top of the hour, to get the most time from the free hour Google provides.

Use the link at the top of this topic to connect. I'm planning to have this topic open in NewMars, for communication.

The main item I have on my list of possible topics is the upgrade of our FluxBB software to run with modern support packages.

I'd like to add two new forums to the Index, and SpaceNut has asked that we (kbd512 and I to be specific) show that adding the new forums won't break the existing system. Having a working duplicate to use for testing would be helpful.

other topics that may be of interest include heat pumps.

Heat pumps require an up front investment, but they appear to be able to deliver more heating than would be provided by the electricity needed to run them, so they should pay for themselves over a period of time.

(th)

Terraformer · 2024-02-18 08:13:12

Ooh what two forums? A specific infrastructure one?

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-18 12:42:11

For Terraformer re proposed new Forums at Index level... please see Housekeeping for discussion.

And please contribute to the discussion. Right now we are addressing technical issues, but once those resolved, we'll have to face the decision of what to actually do. SpaceNut appears to be wanting to stand pat, but after 20 years I think he's had enough time to evaluate how well the existing forums are working.

In any case, member input is needed.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-18 18:58:38

The Google Meeting is set up... The link is in the first post of this topic.

This was another interesting and enlightening meeting from my point of view.

kbd512 opened with a thorough explanation of the CO2 storage system reported in the new CO2 Storage topic.

RobertDyck joined the meeting, and kbd512 and he took off on an energetic discussion of global affairs.

A segment of the meeting was devoted to review of GW Johnson's paper on a landing system for Mars.

Another segment was allocated to a brief study of a Blender project.

(th)

Calliban · 2024-02-20 07:40:04

I would like to attend these virtual meetups, but the time difference makes it awkward.

I would second what Terraformer has said. A specific 'Mars Infrastructure' board might be useful in encouraging development in this topic area. Right now, a disproportionate number of topics get raised in the Science and Technology section. The problem with this concentration is that valuable threads get pushed to the back pages and often don't get chance to develop before people lose sight of them. Having more topic areas wouldn't solve this problem, but would mitigate it.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-20 07:41:35)

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-20 08:07:14

For Calliban re #68

Thanks for your comments here! The Zoom meetings historically started at the time chosen for the convenience of a participant. The midnight UTC time seemed convenient for folks in the US... it covered the three time zones of interest, and it has become a familiar time so it is likely to remain in place. However, the service is potentially available for our European members, and an earlier meeting time would work for US participants. I will commit to setting up a meeting at a time convenient to you, if I'm given a reasonable advance notice. The time required to set up the meeting is not great, but I ** do ** need to plan my day around whatever is decided upon.

What would help would be leadership within the European community to assemble participants.

It would be interesting (to me for sure) to be a witness when you and GW Johnson interact on an engineering project, for example.

He's been working on a 40 ton traditional rocket powered payload delivery system, for example, and your expertise might be helpful in carrying the proposal from the paper study we have now to flight plans.

In case you missed it, the link to the paper is available in the GW Johnson topic. In addition, several video's about space related subjects are available at YouTube.com/exrocketman1

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-25 07:25:15

It is Sunday on NewMars, and a Google Meeting is in planning.

I'll set up the waiting room at 1 AM UTC, 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire...

Agenda items will vary depending upon who attends...

There's a lot going on in the Solar system. There isn't time to consider everything.

We can set up an earlier meeting for our European members, but the request needs to come in before Sunday.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-25 18:55:58

The Google meeting setup is in progress

Last week we had both a productive and a lively meeting.

Often we have one or the other, so it is nice to have both.

Summary .... This was another interesting session...

We appear to agree that Elon has the best chance of putting people on Mars first.

It appears that China is going to be on the Moon with people because we found that goal in their long range plan.

However, that will happen after 2025, because that goal is not in the current five year plan.

(th)

kbd512 · 2024-02-26 05:12:10

tahanson43206,

You posed the question during our weekly call regarding what I would do to contend with China's DF-21D and DF-26 "carrier killer" missiles, wherein you opined that the aircraft carrier might be obsolete, so here's how I would defend against such weapons:

1. Locate and target them using our commercial synthetic aperature radar satellites. The DF-21 weighs 34,200lbs and 35ft long. The DF-26 weighs 44,000lbs and 46ft in length. They're clearly not small weapons you can easily hide under camo netting. Calling them mobile is a bit simplistic. Even so, we should devote sufficient recon and intel assets to find every last truck, ship, or aircraft capable of firing them.

This is What a Chinese Stealth Warship Looks Like on Radar

50cm by 50cm per pixel "radar image" from Capella:
Capella Space unveils world’s highest resolution commercial SAR imagery

16cm by 16cm per pixel "radar image" from Umbra (it's interactive, so you can zoom in):
Umbra Generates the Highest-Resolution Commercial SAR Image Ever Released

2. Any ballistic weapon that is not powered all the way to the target is only moving at Mach 2 to 3 by the time it reaches 10,000ft, due to atmospheric drag, which means the incoming missile or warhead is vulnerable to all of our existing intercept missiles and some of our cannon-based point defense systems. If we need more point-defense missiles and cannons, then perhaps our air defense setup should more closely resemble what was seen aboard our WWII era ships. Beef up our shipboard detection capabilities using AEGIS-integrated EO / IR suites to find their unmistakable IR signatures. Greater use of radar decoys should also be employed.

3. Any non-ballistic weapon hypersonic is subjected to severe aerodynamic heating in the lower atmosphere and has mere seconds to find its taget after it breaches the radar horizon. Since such weapons are de-facto radar-guided or guided by off-board sensors feeding in targeting data in realtime, we also go after those sensors, either through electronic attack or hard kill methods. Locate and destroy or disable all Chinese satellites or other long range sensors capable of providing targeting data to their missiles. SM3 can engage satellites in low orbits, if need be. Soft kill methods that permanently blind their sensors would be preferable. That means laser for optical and microwaves for their radar satellites.

After their missile launchers have been destroyed, or their remote sensors capable of finding carrier battle groups destroyed, they're going to have a lot of money sunk into expensive but otherwise unusable missile systems. At that point, we find their destroyers and sink those first, because they're mobile air defense network hubs also capable of providing or sharing targeting. Their frigates, missile boats, and carriers can be eliminated later.

kbd512 · 2024-02-26 12:57:40

tahanson43206,

There's one point about China that most people seem to miss entirely:

China is utterly dependent upon foreign crude oil imports from other nations for their economy to function. If I was trying to bring the Chinese military to heel, then after they start lobbing missiles at Taiwan, I would attack their crude oil distribution infrastructure and supply routes, and probably not bother with a pointless aircraft carrier duel with land-based missile batteries.

About 50% of China's total economic output is agricultural. If we cut them off from their energy supply, which doesn't require going anywhere near China, then they cease to have a functional economy within 6 months, but probably more like 6 weeks. They have some domestic oil production capacity, but not enough to replace what they lose. Do you keep the lights on at the command center that coordinates your hypersonic missile attacks, or do you run the tractors on the farms so your people don't starve next year? I wouldn't wish that decision on anyone, but if they keep after it, they're going to be the ones making it.

The Chinese know this, which is why they're developing their own blue water navy, complete with CATOBAR aircraft carriers. If the Chinese really thought aircraft carriers were so incredibly vulnerable to ballistic weapons as to be rendered obsolete, then that doesn't explain why their aircraft carrier development is going full speed ahead. They'd have to be brain dead to think we don't have hypersonic weapons, too, because we're loading them into the new VLS tubes that replaced the 155mm guns on the Zumwalt class. We've had ballistic weapons for decades- thousands of them. We used to call them ICBMs with MaRVs, and nobody acted like they had something special, because if you were using them nobody really expected to survive. We quit developing and fielding them as part of nuclear arms reduction treaties, but we still retain the capacity to produce ICBMs and MaRVs. DF-21D and DF-26 use functional copies of our Pershing II MaRV.

Lastly, let's talk numbers.

A super carrier is a ship with 2,400 compartments that weighs about 220 million pounds, so roughly equal to 34 fully loaded Saturn V rockets, and it actually floats. 90ft waves that come clear over the bow, which is 80 feet above the waterline, aren't sufficient to sink them. They plow though them at 30 knots. That's a seriously strong hull. About 2/3rds of the ship is above the waterline, so all else being equal, you need to poke enough holes for it to take on a hell of a lot of water to actually sink it. The hull of the ship is about 2 inches of steel above the waterline to 4 inches of steel below the waterline.

Anything short of a direct hit by a nuclear weapon is not going to sink it if all the hatches are battened down. We know this from testing performed at Operation Crossroads, where a 23kt bomb exploded about 600 yards from a 17,000t light carrier. The crew will be dead from the radiation in 2 to 4 days if they're not inside the reactor compartment, but the ship will survive.

Here's a photo of a WWII era light carrier, before and after the bomb blast:

main-qimg-444335c0aa34e576db894b27ab508cc3-lq

Q: Was it sunk?

A: Obviously not. It had a wooden flight deck, so being just outside the fireball, that's obviously gone. Would a steel flight deck as thick or thicker than the hull plating of that ship catch fire? Obviously not. If a nuclear warhead detonated directly on, in, or under the ship, that would be enough to sink it, because there's sufficient explosive force to rip the ship apart. That is the only practical way to outright sink a modern super carrier. This ship then survived another nearby underwater blast, and had to be scuttled. They were able to board these ships within 24 hours of each detonation.

The peak over-pressure is 1,000,000psi in the center of the fireball, which is why a direct hit will outright sink a carrier, at 350ft from a 1MT / 1,000kt warhead is about 100,000psi, and 700ft it's already down to 10,000psi. Pressure drops by an order of magnitude with doubling of the distance from the blast. USS Ford's HY-110 will yield at 110,00psi. The heat will obviously soften the steel, so localized buckling and material degradation is to be expected, but we can see why anything short of a direct hit is not going to sink it. The crew outside the reactor compartment would die from the radiation inside of a week, but the ship won't be sunk.

A Review of Nuclear Explosion Phenomena Pertinent to Protective Construction

A British Centurion Mk3 tank, No 169041 / 06BA16, was parked 500ft from a 9kt blast, fully loaded with ammo, engine running. The force of the blast pushed the tank 5ft away from the weapon detonation. The tank's engine quit running after it drained its gasoline tank. The tank was damaged, but subsequently repaired and put back into service to fight in the Viet Nam War. The optics were sand-blasted by the debris, which would've prevented it from functioning as a tank. A heavier modern main battle tank with Depleted Uranium armor would not only shrug off such a blast, but likely provide better crew protection with its NBC air filtration system. As was the case with large ships, you can only be assured of an outright kill against a tank by a direct hit from a nuclear weapon. Anything less accurate is not sufficient.

Nuclear weapons are indeed terrifyingly powerful weapons, but they're clearly not the magic death sticks Hollyweird movies portray them as, possibly because it wouldn't make for a very good story.

GW Johnson · 2024-02-27 10:17:49

There was a nasty little characteristic applicable to ships, discovered at the Bikini Able and Baker test explosions.

What they expected to be able to do was just wash the radioactive fallout off the surfaces with fire hoses. But what they found was the fallout particles were hot enough to melt their way into the typically-thick paint coats that steel ships require in saltwater service. Fire hoses could not wash enough loose to decontaminate the ships. This was documented in the AEC report "Effects of Nuclear Weapons 1957", which I found declassified in the Grand Prairie public library in the early 1960's.

With a tank, you can remove the paint (what wasn't burned off by the explosion, it's thinner) and repaint it. With a ship that is less feasible, especially since the paint you are removing is radioactive enough to kill, months or even years after the explosion. BB-34 New York was there for those tests, and was towed back to Pearl afterward, and in a lot better shape than that carrier. But no one was allowed aboard because of the radiation danger. Eventually, the only practical "solution" was scuttling her in deep water, 2 years later, or thereabouts, if memory serves.

BB-35 Texas was supposed to meet the same fate, but did not go to Bikini, she was busy ferrying troops home after the war ended.

GW

kbd512 · 2024-02-27 16:44:51

GW,

What is the feasibility of a plasma spray ceramic oxide or Silicon Carbide CVD coating, rather than paint?

Either of those should be more corrosion resistant than typical paints, and probably better for the environment as well. Silicon Carbide sublimates rather than melting, when it reaches 2,700C. I've read that temperatures briefly reach 3,000C to 4,000C, so the coating should sublimate away, leaving bare steel, and hopefully carrying away the radioactive particulates with it.

The Mk57 VLS armored hatches and blast deflectors aboard the Zumwalt class appear almost as though they were coated with a dark gray or flat black Silicon Carbide, but maybe I'm wrong. These coatings appear to be available in a flat white, various shades of gray, and black.

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#51 2023-12-17 19:37:11

Re: Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

#52 2024-01-06 18:48:25

Re: Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

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Re: Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

#54 2024-01-07 21:12:53

Re: Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

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Re: Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

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Re: Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

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Re: Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

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Re: Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

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Re: Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

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