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#1 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming Neptune » 2007-11-08 14:55:36

Are all of you sane?Neptune is ONLY a crushing atmosphere.The gases eventually liquifies a some point but there are temperatures of many thosands of degress.

#2 Re: Terraformation » Optimal human living conditions » 2007-11-08 14:47:47

Another crazy idea.Sorry, no offense, but I sometimes feel like the people on this forum are smoking pot while writing.Breathing air composed of 78 percent water vapor, alien condition as "better"...
Our optimal enviroment is Earth, because we evolved there.We are "fine tuned" to Earthlike enviroment.Of course changes like having 1.1 G instead of 1 G gravity or 24 or 19 percents of oxygen instead of common 21 percents will not harm anyone but are absolutelly useless apart from increasing/reducing your life expectancy by 5 seconds....

#3 Re: Water on Mars » Where is this ocean gone? » 2007-10-27 05:00:44

If an ocean like the one below has been on Mars, where is the water now? Any explanations?
ancientmarsocean.jpg

Well, I think that the current theory says that the oceans were huge but shallow.
And a good portion of it is in the regolith now.
There is still enough water on Mars now to flood entire planet with 35 m deep water.
Your thinking is too simple.The water will not simply freeze on the surface, it is frozen in the regolith, polar caps, a bit of it is in the atmosphere...

#4 Re: Terraformation » Water Vapour instead of Nitrogen » 2007-10-27 04:52:15

Would it be possible on the outer planets to use water vapour instead of Nitrogen for the bulk of the atmosphere? That would eliminate the problem of finding nitrogen and it would heat the planets surface to (hopefully) the level where the Water Vapor wouldn't turn back into ice.

I think that you don't have an idea about air humidity.Humans will suffocate with more than 90 perc. humidity.I once breathed air with 85 perc. humidity and it was hell.And I get a severe and painful mold invection of both of my ears.
And even at 100 perc. humidity you have just a few percents of it in the air.

#5 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking » 2007-08-08 06:29:03

Spatula, the temperature on Venus' surface is ~465C which will melt lead. This is above the critical temperature of water (374C), where no matter what the pressure it is at it does not form a liquid. So there will be no water to dissolve CO2 and do the other things you mention. The water in the atmosphere, will photo-disassociate and the hydrogen will be lost. I believe I've read that NASA space probes have detected hydrogen being lost from Venus. Anyone have a link?

Something to consider is that when most of the atmosphere becomes water by composition, how heat will be distributed in such an atmosphere.


Antius, when the sun was only 70% as hot as it is now, Venus was thought to have a hot wet greenhouse. The temperature then was enough to evaporate the seas. The carbonates were baked out of rocks releasing CO2 and Venus has turned into the dry greenhouse it now is as the hydrogen was lost.

I think I made a good case for the probability that Venus never had appreciable amounts of water. Stellar evolution models and the lack of atmospheric oxygen would preclude significant water in Venus's past. It was always a furnace.

Now if we add water (which is a VERY powerful greenhouse gas) we make the temperature problems worse. If we could somehow turn the CO2 atmosphere into oxygen then Venus will then radiate a lot of its heat and we might be able to get it to a stable state. But for that to happen, you have to have liquid water at the same place as the phosphorus, iodine, iron & other trace elements. I don't see this happening unless the planet is made much cooler, presumably with some sort of space mirror or the like.

Water is a very strong greenhouse gas, but unlike CO2 it undergoes phases. Hot water vapor is not as dense as CO2, and rises quickly to the top of the atmosphere, taking heat away from the surface. Upon radiating this heat into space, it precipitates to the surface as liquid or solid depending on the atmospheric temperatures.

The water itself traps a lot of infrared radiation due to its polar hydrogen bonds, but because of its phases it tends to be more of an anti-greenhouse gas in planetary settings.

For more anti-greenhouse effects, see Mars. Mars is so cold that CO2 experiences phases on its surface, and because CO2 can freeze and sublimate, it decreases the planet's temperature further. Or perhaps Titan, where Methane, another greenhouse gas, experiences phases and cools the moon off. Or perhaps Pluto, where the cryogenic temperatures are low enough for Nitrogen to have phases and act in a similar fashion.

Venus is a lot hotter than Earth (1.913 times the Earth's insolation), so its oceans will always be in danger of ending up in the run away wet greenhouse that it suffered when Venus was getting 1.33 times Earth's current insolation. This suggests to me that we will ALWAYS want to have a mirror reducing the amount of heat it gets from the sun, or be adding more floating mirrors, manually sequestering CO2, moving Venus farther from the sun, etc. It just sounds like more work than for Mars.

A good concern. With increasing levels of light comes increasing reflectivity. As a material gains heat energy, its specific heat increases, causing it to have trouble gaining further energy. Instead it becomes reflective. A lot of this ties into black-body radiation - as it gets brighter, an object will act more and more like a white body. Venus's natural temperature without the greenhouse effect should not be twice as high as Earth's. Closer to the edge of livability, but well within it.

Floating mirrors are the objects of sci-fi, and will probably remain that way, concerning terraforming. If we screw up, and the planet is still a bit too hot, supplementing the atmosphere with reflective particles and anti-greenhouse gases would push it into safe territory.

You are wrong.
Oxygen oxidised the rocks and it never remains in the atmosphere for more than million years without replenishing and there is no reason why Venus was formed with little water.

Wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus :
"Classified as a terrestrial planet, it is sometimes called Earth's "sister planet", for the two are similar in size, gravity, and bulk composition. Venus is covered with an opaque layer of highly reflective clouds of sulfuric acid, preventing its surface from being seen from space in visible light; this was a subject of great speculation until some of its secrets were revealed by planetary science in the twentieth century. Venus has the densest atmosphere of all the terrestrial planets, consisting mostly of carbon dioxide as it has no carbon cycle operating to lock carbon back into rocks and surface features, nor organic life to absorb it in biomass. It has become so hot that the earth-like oceans the young Venus is believed to have possessed have totally evaporated, leaving a dusty dry desertscape with many slab-like rocks. The evaporated water vapor has dissociated and hydrogen has escaped into interplanetary space. The atmospheric pressure at the planet's surface is 92 times that of the Earth, the great majority of it carbon-dioxide and other greenhouse gases. (By comparison, a few hundreds of parts per million of carbon dioxide on Earth are believed to cause significant warming.)"

For us oxygen is an essential gas but it a strong oxidant that never remains in the atmosphere of a planet without plantlife.
And there are forms of life on Earth for what it is extremely toxic and oxidise them in a while;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen

"Diatomic oxygen (O2) is one of the two major components of air (20.95%). It is produced by plants during photosynthesis, and is necessary for aerobic respiration in animals. It is toxic to obligate anaerobic organisms and was a poisonous waste product for early life on Earth."

And the UV radiation converted a bit of oxygen on Venus in the higher atmosphere to ozone that protect us from deadly UVC here on Earth but on Venus it accelerated the oxidation of volcanic sulfur and SO2 to SO3
that combined with escaping hydrogen to form H2SO4 that is sulfuric acid.
And WHY BOTHER GATHERING ICE WHEN YOU COULD CONVERT ACID TO WATER!?H2SO4>REMOVE SULFUR>H2O+S8.USE HEAD NOT "ASSUMING".
And that thing that you said about stellar evolution is a nonsense.

#6 Re: Life on Mars » Mars warming up » 2007-07-21 05:52:13

that mars is warming do not mean that it is causes by the same thing as on here on earth

#8 Re: Terraformation » Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming? » 2007-07-18 09:27:49

And carbonates are destroyed by even a slightly acidic solution.
Try to put limestone into vinegar.
And these oceans were perfectly normal, because Earth's ceans were also full of acids and hydrogen sulfide 4 bya even trough there was microbial  life present.
Do not be so pseudosceptical.
There is no reason for what Mars couldn't have past life or even present life?
"Horrible UV, dessication and oxidizers"
Acetobacteria peroxidas metabolises hydrogen peroxide, water+peroxide could remain liquid even at -40 deg. Celsius and it is hygroscopic which is good on a cold desert planet.
UV and cosmic rays was proven to be reduced to acceptable levels for microorganisms growth by 1 mm of Martian dust.
And humidity is actually higher than on Earth's deserts, there is frost, haze...

#9 Re: Terraformation » Are acid seas a problem for future terraforming? » 2007-07-18 09:18:19

http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect19/Sect19_13b.html
"The stability field for Jarosite is fairly small, occuring where water present is moderately acid and mildly oxidizing. This occurs most commonly when hydrothermal solutions pass through rock bodies that contain pyrite which may then alter to Jarosite or to Limonite (gossan)...."

That water was acidic does not mean that there were battery acid seas.

#10 Re: Terraformation » Floating Venusian cities or Venus vs Mars vs Titan revisited » 2007-07-07 02:37:51

Spatula,

Yeah it's pretty tough to match up free oxygen exactly with sulphur as a contributor if we try to match the quantity of c02 from h20.
Even adding other possible oxygen gobblers we should still have quite a bit of free oxygen left.

A pretty good reason exists why Venus wouldn't have anywhere near as much water to begin with anyway.

In the early solar system as you pointed out the sun was about 25% hotter,
Most of the water/ice comets that could make it to earth at this period could not make it to Venus as ice balls.
Only the very big ones would have made it all the way to Venus, loosing most of the mass on the way.
The smaller ones just don't make it at all.

Even in todays cooler solar system comets start out gassing long before the earth orbital area.

Just working on that one point we could expect maybe 25% or less of the water earth has to make it to Venus.

This also works well to calculate the water content of Mars, mars gets 1/4 of Earths water quantity because it's 1/4 the mass of Earth and moon.
A hot Mars with little magnetic field and weak gravity looses most of its water until it freezes the remaining, free oxygen is turned into iron oxide and peroxide on the surface.

Venus is never a cool place due to lost retrograde moons and head on collisions, its water deliveries are turned into steam and contribute to the c02 content of the atmosphere.
At 25% of earth water quantity the h20 matches the carbon counts and we get no free oxygen, the continual release of sulphur gobbles up any excess oxygen.
The high c02 quantity of Venus we see today is caused mainly from combining 3 or 4 atmospheres from different bodies Venus has collided with and extreme volcanic activity when these events occurred.


Earth is 25% hotter but retains most of it's water because of its magnetic field strong gravity and temperatures below boiling water.
When we get the first pools of water to form on the surface life takes over to start eating up co2.

Works for all 3 places.

Wrong.Read something about runaway greenhouse.
And Sun was cooler when it was young.

#11 Re: Terraformation » How Quickly Does Mars Lose Air? » 2007-07-07 02:23:16

Atomoid references the 2004 July / August issue of the Planetary Report which discusses how needed a magnetic field is to keep an atmosphere. Some of the main points...

- For a 1 atm pressure atmosphere you need more gas (because the lower gravity does not compress it as much). This thicker atm. actually gives more radiation protection with out a magnetic field than Earth does with it.

- The article says that 2 m of water was lost over 4 billion years. (This is less than the 14 to 34 meters quoted above.) A thicker atm. won't erode faster than the current one, so if we give Mars a new atm. it would last a very long time. e.g. billions of years.

- The article suggests that the water has not been lost but is frozen under the surface. It then talks about McKay / Zubrins terriforming idea.

This is exactly what I've been saying. A thick atmosphere will not have the high escape rate that a thin one has under the same gravity, due to the real gas law. What Mars lost over billions of years could take trillions if it had the atmospheric density required to create 1 bar of pressure. An Earth-like atmosphere with a distinct ionosphere layer will be more than enough to protect from the Sun's high frequency radiation. This occurs at Earth's poles, where the magnetosphere is weak or nonexistant. It occurs when Earth's magnetosphere enters a dormant phase for hundreds of thousands of years. Not having a dynamo is not a problem.

Now, not having geological activity except for the occasional fumarole or hot spring could indeed be a problem for Mars in the long term. We'll have to see.

Exactly.
With a dynamo particles are only crashed into polar regions.

#12 Re: Terraformation » How Quickly Does Mars Lose Air? » 2007-07-07 02:15:55

Is it possible that we could insert a dense non-radiactive material into the core that would increase the planets gravitational pull to keep the oxygen in the atmosphere. Also, couldn't it be possible to find or drill a hole into the core of mars and from that point have a nuke with a hyper-dense shell that would stay intact until the inner core at which point it would explode and start the cores rotating to create a magnetosphere. I would like to know if either of these optiopns is viable to begin teraaformation.

That is a nonsense from film the Core.
Nukes are weak here.
And Mars can retain its oxygen.
Even 1000 nukes will not produce any effect.
Atmosphere is leaking after bíllions of years not days.

#13 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2007-07-06 15:21:55

Most of the mass of the atmosphere could come from the moon, as could 90% of the mass of the water needed to produce an active hydrosphere.

A lunar atmosphere consisting of 90% pure oxygen and perhaps 10% water vapour at 1/3rd bar, would produce the same O2 concentration in human blood as Earth's atmosphere.  Only trace amounts of nitrogen would actually be needed.

Don't forget that under 1/6th earth gravity, it would take an atmosphere twice as dense as Earth's to create 1/3rd pressure at the Moon's surface.

If, at any point, we have to rely on industrial refining to get something, such as chemically extracting components from the moon's crust, we might as well give up. This would be an impossibly expensive step to conduct on a planetary scale. Getting stuff like Oxygen without refining would be insurmountable.

The best thing I can think of is genetically engineering a very sturdy type of bacteria to pull it out of the minerals in the crust.

I'm not saying it's impossible to terraform the Moon. I'm saying that for the cost, it's not worth it.

If you will have more partial pressure of the oxygen in that atmosphere you will not need so much pressure.
It will be done, sometimes.

#14 Re: Terraformation » Iceteroids: What happens when they get to Mars? » 2007-07-06 14:58:52

I calculated using this; http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg … raSim.html ;

That for warming Mars to avg. temperature of 2 deg. Celsius and creating a 346.5 milibar atmosphere from sublimated CO2 from regolith and cap CO2 inventory you will need 6 microbars partial pressure of PCFs (the same greenhouse effect as CFCs fortunatelly PFCs are not destroying ozone layer).
Ammonia will warm the planet, but will be destroyed when there will be ocygen in the atmosphere and we want breathable air!

That pressure and temperature is enough to support liquid water.

Adding more than 6 microbars will unfortuanatelly not help because from 6 microbars to 7 microbars it would increase average temperature only by 0.1 degress Celsius per 1 microbar and when you will add more than 7 microbars the temperature increase starts becoming more neglible and even if you will add 1000 microbars of it the temperature will be only 0.8 deg. Celsius higher than with 6 microbars (!).
So the 6 microbars of PFC is a reasonable maximum.

#15 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Earth’s great Deserts - Turning the Sahara into a rainforest. » 2007-07-06 13:03:30

And why not genetically tweak humans to be better adopted to desert?That will make the colonisation of natural deserts more easy.
For example, if humans could manifacture their water from food like kangoroo desert rat do trough oxidative phosphorylation ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_rat ; and produce more concentrated urine; then we will be able to colonise naturally arid areas while stop desertification.
Ofc it is a thing of further future, but if we want to colonise Mars, Moon and asteroids on a large scale, we will need low G genetical enhacements anyways.

#16 Re: Life support systems » Power generation on Mars » 2007-07-06 11:34:05

ok... nuclear is out, since if you crack a mount on your way down, that's four crew members and a few hundred square miles of contaminated mars...

Muon catalyzed fusion doesn't work, because you need a good source of muons. There's a really great source of muons only about eight light minutes away: The sun. All we have to do is figure out a way of towing the sun around behind us so we can get some hydrogen to fuse....

Solar is the way to go, but not in the form of solar panels. Along with my other research projects, I ran across something called a microbial fuel cell. I've boosted the efficiency and made it light, small, and powerful enough to handle lighting requirements for a hab and made up a portable version for a rover. I'm getting a web server online within about a month so I can perhaps get some investors lined up, and will post a link ASAP. The little guy I have running now regenerates its own fuel using sunlight. I think that sodium sulfate solution would work wonders, however. Perhaps there's a way to put all those different salts in solution at one time, so the eight percent efficiency works on all of them, and gets boosted to 32%? that would be as efficient as any solar panel out there...

The only problem comes when you consider a leak in a microbial fuel cell would introduce microbes to mars. Yeast, however would instantly anhilate itself due to the cold, ultraviolet radiation, and sudden lack of atmosphere. So... let your microbes do the walking!

Microbes are able to live in Martian conditions, see radiodurans.
It is acid, vacuum, hot and cold resistant so microbial contamination will be a concern.

#17 Re: Life support systems » Communication on Mars » 2007-07-06 11:13:11

What's the best way to communicate from Mars to Earth and vice versa?
Communication amongst people on Mars?

Radio waves.
For people on Mars in one colony, of course, speech lol .

#18 Re: Terraformation » How much PFCs we will need to warm up Mars? » 2007-07-06 11:12:06

Using this calculator ; http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg … raSim.html ; I calculated that only 1 microbar of PFCs will be needed to warm up Mars to an average temperature of -1.5 degress Celsius and create a 314.62 milibar primarily CO2 atmosphere from sublimation of polar caps and regolith.

A good start.

How much PCF you will need to create 1 microbar of it in the Martian atmosphere?

#19 Re: Terraformation » How much PFCs we will need to warm up Mars? » 2007-07-06 10:53:57

How much perflourocarbones we will need to warm up Mars to Earthlike temperatures?

#20 Re: Terraformation » Adding mass to Mars - An idea to stop loosing atmosphere » 2007-07-06 10:38:38

The whole "hydrogen retention" thing is a nonsense.
If all life suddenly disappeared and temperature has risen to 70 degress, all water will evaporate and warm up planet to more than 100 degress to be photolysed it a few million years in the upper atmosphere by UV light.
Hydrogen will escape, deuterium will stay and released oxygen will recombine with volcanic acidic gases to form H2SO4 and HCl.
The CO2 will be released from the boiling oceans and cause more warming until the limestone will not became quicklime and release all these enormous amounts of CO2 what was trapped in it, warming the planet to Venuslike temperatures.
That is exactly what happened to Venus.

Wikipedia on that;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheri … s_on_Earth

Earth’s magnetic field protects it from solar winds and prevents escape of ions, except at open field lines in the poles. Earth’s mass, increasing gravitational attraction, prevents other non-thermal loss processes from appreciably depleting the atmosphere. Yet Earth’s atmosphere is two order of magnitude less dense than that of Venus at the surface. Because of the temperature regime of Earth, CO2 and H2O are sequestered in the hydrosphere and lithosphere. H2O vapor is sequestered as liquid H2O in oceans, greatly decreasing the atmospheric density. With liquid water running over the surface of Earth, CO2 can be drawn down from the atmosphere and sequestered in sedimentary rocks. Some estimates indicate that carbon is trapped in sedimentary rocks, with the atmospheric portion being approximately 1/250,000 of Earth’s CO2 reservoir. If both of the reservoirs were in released in the atmosphere, Earth’s atmosphere would be more dense than even Venus’s atmosphere. Therefore, the dominant “loss” mechanism of Earth’s atmosphere is not escape to space, but sequestration.

#21 Re: Terraformation » Adding mass to Mars - An idea to stop loosing atmosphere » 2007-07-06 10:35:02

Nitrogen is more abundant on Venus than on Earth.

Not proportionately - Venus atmosphere is ~96.5% CO2

Do you believe thermodynamic loss ...

http://cseligman.com/text/planets/retention.htm

... is a factor at all in atmospheric retention?

It is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus
The amount of nitrogen in the Venus's atmosphere is about 4x that of Earth.
And buildup of CO2 is here because there are no carbon sinks and no carbonate rocks - all sublimated.
If you will sublime all these rocks on Earth, you will get the same atmosphere.
Yes, it is.

Read something about runaway greenhouse atmospheres.
That thing has absolutely nothing with mag. field.
And we have no hydrogen on Earth, but WATER which is a lot heavier molecule.
On Venus the water was lost by photochemical processes.

#22 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Earth’s great Deserts - Turning the Sahara into a rainforest. » 2007-07-06 10:20:27

So we should just bend over, spread our buttocks, and accept whatever the planet decides to throw at us? With that mentality, we'd still be living nomadic existence, because building houses is reclaiming land from nature to our use.

So I guess we shouldn't try to restore the Aral Sea, we should just accept that the planet "wants" it to be a barren wasteland now.

We shouldn't try to restore the Sahara, we should just accept that the planet "wants" it to be a barren wasteland now.

Do we have the "right" to irrigate land that became desert in the last 5 years, in an attempt to restore it to bloom? If not, that's basically a mentality of "bending over and letting the planet do as it will". If yes, then do we have the "right" to irrigate the land that became desert in the last 50 years? 500 years? 5000 years? Where does the limit go? If we go back far enough, Sahara wasn't desert. We have the "right" to turn back the clock by 5 years, but not 50,000? Where does the line go, and who has the right to decide where the line goes?

Aral Sea catastrophe was caused by humans.
So we have DUTY to restore it because we disrupted the ecosystem.

But Sahara was a desert long time ago and it is BIOME on it's own right.
For you it is a barren wasteland but for it's desert animals and nomadic people it is a home.
Try to put scorpion, vulture, cacti or desert nomadic people into rainforest....
Do you want to reduce biodiversity and seed only animals from the country what has the climate you want to recreate on Sahara?
Not only you would kill animals, you will also disrupt the life of the nomadic people.

Rather tell Chinese that they stop reproducing like rabbits.
I do not want to have an overcrowded Earth.
I am living in a village and even tought of living in a city is frightening for me.

I belive Lovelock's GAIA theory that states that Earth is basically a living organism that has it's own self-regulating mechanisms that should not be disturbed.
So we should rather concentrate on eliminating the pollution and desertification and deforastation.
Also, with no deserts the sea will became a biological desert - no deserts to fertilize it with minerals from slit and dust and so plankton will have less nutrients to grow.

#23 Re: Terraformation » Adding mass to Mars - An idea to stop loosing atmosphere » 2007-07-06 08:01:53

Venus is another case and example.
And it do not have any magnetic field.

But it has a 90 bar atmosphere!  And even so, most of the lighter elements have been lost (hydrogen, helium, nitrogen, oxygen).  Now only CO2 is left. 

Why didn't the ionosphere stop the lighter gas molecules being lost?

Nitrogen is more abundant on Venus than on Earth.
And hydrogen escaped because the water boiled and was photodissociated by UV rays in the upper atmosphere.
That will happen to Earth 1.6 billion years in the future.
And hydrogen will escape.

Oxygen and remaining hydrogen recombined with volcanic SO2 into H2SO4.

#24 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Earth’s great Deserts - Turning the Sahara into a rainforest. » 2007-07-06 07:58:43

If we can turn deserts into forests and farms we should.

:evil: HUMANS HAVE NO RIGHT TO DO THAT!

#25 Re: Civilization and Culture » Should we use an ecological approach? - Creating a Stable Martian Civilization » 2007-07-06 06:32:12

Forget ecology;
All the supergreenhouse gasses,
extreme pollution is just a small step in terraformation.

Supergreenhouse gases are harmless for any life.
And we are talking not about terraformed Mars but colonies on a wild red Mars...

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