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Canada's relationship with the US is like brothers; we can bicker like brothers. When Canadians feel particularly oppressed, or when Americans get condescending, we can be critical. It has been said that most Americans cannot find Canada on a map. I'm born and raised in Canada, but lived and worked in the US twice. For 6 months in 1997 I worked in Colonial Heights, with an apartment in the town of Chester, both are suburbs of Richmond, Virginia. For 10 months (June 1999 - March 2000), I lived and worked in Miami, Florida. While there I discovered that most Americans have never left their county; ever in their entire lives. Mars Society members tend to be educated, informed Americans, but that's not the average. And getting any news outside the US was difficult, I had to regularly go on the internet to view Canadian news websites. The only time American news would report on anything outside America was when events directly affected an American. They're very insular. Half the TV channels in Canada are American channels, but living there really did feel like another country. And a lot of subtle but important things are different: Canadian banks offer foreign exchange at every branch, but American banks don't even know how, couldn't even exchange Canadian currency. They had to mail a Canadian cheque to their head office in another state. Paying utility bills at an ATM machine was awkward, the way Canadian banks did it a decade before. Canadian banks can cash a cheque from any other Canadian bank or credit union, but American banks have great difficulty dealing with other American banks outside their state. American banks can't sell you a money order, but a convenience store called 7-Eleven can. Even buying an airline ticket is bizarre: they wouldn't let me purchase a ticket with a credit card, because I wasn't an American citizen. Even though I was a resident in the US, working for a government of the US (in Miami I worked for the county government), had a work visa, and my utility bills were for my American address. They had a completely separate special case, as if I was a terrorist or something. In Canada, refusing a credit card because of nationality is illegal. The process they put me through to buy a ticket for a weekend trip to New Orleans would be illegal in Canada.
Their education system sucks. UN surveys of education consistently rank the US low, usually 17th in the world. When I lived there I discovered the amount of money they spend on public school, per student, in city core areas is the same as wealthy suburban areas. But the quality of education is not at all the same. Core area schools in Richmond were run-down, damaged, and very poor quality. While quality of education in rich suburban areas is the same as education at a public school in Canada. Americans go on about how private school is so much better than public school, and in their country it is. While in Canada, education in public school is pretty much the same as private schools. That's why UN surveys usually rank Canadian education about 5th in the world.
But for all their short comings, a lot of Americans are good people. Many Americans did protest the invasion of Iraq before it happened, saying that was a war over oil, not ethical values or security. Most Americans did understand that Al Quaeda was in Afghanistan, not Iraq. So many educated Americans do get it. The problem is the rich and powerful are in control in America, the average voter has very little impact. They have a democracy, and on some issues like cancelling funding for the Hubble space telescope or James Webb Space Telescope, they can listen. But that's if it's something Congress sees as minor. Issues such as foreign policy are dictated by rich and powerful. The rich and powerful are only concerned with getting more rich and more powerful. Americans have protested against Obama using drones to kill individuals in foreign countries, saying he's only creating new enemies. Notice how much the US government ignores those protests.
And yes, America has the death penalty. Canada doesn't. America has a larger proportion of their population in jail than any other country in the world. Not Russia, not Iraq, not Cuba, not any other country, it's America. Yes, they have problems. But two wrongs do not make a right. I will never defend the Soviet Union. Under Yeltsin, Russia became a democracy with a free market economy. That created problems, and Russia still hasn't worked through all those problems. Yes, a change like that is big. Russia went from Tsars to an oligarchy with communism, so adopting democracy and a free market economy for the first time is not easy. But what we're seeing in Ukraine is not excusable.
In 1990 Iraq invaded and annexed Kuwait. The 1991 Persian Gulf War was to stop that. World War 1 was to end wars between European countries, wars to annex territory from each other. The reason for the 1991 war was to ensure that practice does not come back. So what's going on in Ukraine right now is a major back-slide. This is going back to the values and problems of the 1800s.
Last edited by RobertDyck (2014-04-16 15:48:44)
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Sorry I just have to clarify what I said about cities in the USSR during WW2. The main parts that were destroyed were Belarus (White Russia which is now a separate country for the first time in history) Ukraine, Leningrad and some other parts of Western Russia. Leningrad suffered terribly in the siege. Some say people resorted to cannibalism and the bombs were constantly falling. It's a city of a good 5 million inhabitants. Some people in Western Ukraine supported the Nazis, however.
I tend to spend the most time in Belarus, not Russia proper, that's why I said what I said. Most of Belarus was essentially levelled with the ground. I think 1/4 of the entire population of the Belorussian SSR was killed in WW2.
In Minsk, there was practically not a building standing other than a church after the war. It was rebuilt very nicely though, after the war. It's SO deep in people's psyches, you can't imagine.
The Victory Day parades are not about trying to scare others, like Western media makes out. It's about re-assuring people "that will never happen again" and acknowledge the brothers, sisters, parents and friends of people who are still alive today with a party in the evening.
There are many millions of adults in the ex USSR who grew up as orphans because all their families were killed.
The Victory Day on Crimea this year should be spectacular and the public mood unbelievable. I'd love to see it.
Whoever doesn't know about the enormous destruction that's been brought to Russia by countless invasions through the centuries need to read up on history. Not just Germany and France. Sweden, Mongols, Turks and countless others have been doing serious damage in Russia. I am not one of these history geek Russians but it's just a long history of invasions, basically.
It didn't help that Russia's leaders of the past were prepared to sacrifice lives and land in quite a cavalier way to stop the enemies.
Russia beneath talk, ideology etc, etc is a very paranoid country and the paranoia is about another event that will DESTROY the country. WW2 did it, disillusion of the USSR did it. At this point most people just want stability and predictability.
The destruction is usually coming from the West. That's why Russia wants a little buffer between itself and Europe. Certainly no NATO bases on its borders
As for Eastern Europe after WW2 - that was all agreed in Yalta, and Stalin simply adhered to the agreement. If it was such a big issue for the West, it shouldn't have signed the agreement to begin with. Typical double standard to agree one day and then start undermining it the next. All the USSR did was follow through on what was agreed. Many of the countries actually turned their back on the USSR and did their own flavour of socialism and speaking quite strongly against the Soviet Union. Like Yugoslavia, Romania, Albania. And note that the USA still has bases in Western Europe. The USSR never had anywhere near as many foreign bases in Europe, as the USA had,almost all of them were in Germany.
Most of the Eastern European countries were very poor and backwards at start of WW2, compared with Western Europe. Socialism had its faults but to many it meant a huge lift in opportunities and equality for some really poor areas.
With all the cr@p that's been going on in these countries over the last 20 years its not unusual to speak to people who would take socialism back in a flash. They just don't get any time in media; but it's quite common to hear such comments, actually. Communists are the main opposition in quite a few of the Eastern countries. Not to mention their view of the imported junk culture and values that have been adopted in Western Europe.
Last edited by martienne (2014-04-16 13:28:22)
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One thing about this thread though! Wasn't Politics supposed to be banned in this forum? I can't believe what novels I posted in this thread. Why are we even discussing this?
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As the forum's primary moderator and possibly the strongest supporter of the politics ban, it seemed to me that it was a good idea to experiment with allowing politics, since I'm a string believer in free speech and an outright ban seems to have been poor policy for the health of the forums.
-Josh
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@martinenne: The Mars Society was first founded in 1998. At that time Boris Yeltsin was president of Russia. Many people in the Mars Society called for using the big Russia rocket for a mission to Mars. This started with Dr. Robert Zubrin himself, in his book "The Case for Mars". I knew nothing of Energia before reading that book, but thought it was a great idea. I've argued for using Energia ever since. However, with the Ukraine crisis, any cooperation between Russia and any NATO country is just not possible. It's really sad to see the most affordable and reasonable method to explore Mars disappear.
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@martinenne: The Mars Society was first founded in 1998. At that time Boris Yeltsin was president of Russia. Many people in the Mars Society called for using the big Russia rocket for a mission to Mars. This started with Dr. Robert Zubrin himself, in his book "The Case for Mars". I knew nothing of Energia before reading that book, but thought it was a great idea. I've argued for using Energia ever since. However, with the Ukraine crisis, any cooperation between Russia and any NATO country is just not possible. It's really sad to see the most affordable and reasonable method to explore Mars disappear.
Good point Robert. I liked your idea when you mentioned it earlier and it's obvious it's going to take an international effort to get to Mars. I haven't read Zubrin's book, but it sounds like I ought to. It's been on my list for ages...
Yes. Well - I completely support Russia on Crimea and I think anyone who doesn't accept the will of the people there, is just a Russophobe. Ukraine brought the loss upon themselves. I'll never make apologies for Crimea and I am still really happy that it's back where it belongs.
I really can't figure out myself what's happening in Eastern Ukraine and what (if anything) Russia is doing and planning. I personally am AGAINST any form of annexation there. Let them stay with Ukraine. So what if they speak Russian. So does everyone in Belarus and most of Kazakhstan. It turns out that most of them are actually happy to remain Ukrainians, so let them. The people out on the barricades don't necessarily represent the whole population, just like in Kiev. Apparently the main issue is language and the coup d'etat, not that they are desperate to become Russians. I would not want to be Russian myself, as things stand right now. I really hope Putin hasn't flipped and decided to annex Eastern Ukraine. Probably he hasn't, but I've heard some rumours that actually made me wonder a bit... I guess time will tell.
As for co-operation for getting to Mars:
There is no law that says the USA needs to be part of the first Mars mission. If they don't want to work with Russia, then don't... China would work with Russia, no problem. The EU might come around eventually.
In 15 years China will be undisputedly the largest and strongest economy. Hopefully they've eradicated extreme rural poverty there. Russia ought to also be better off than today - hopefully with a more diversified industry. It's not inconceivable that Putin's dream of the Eurasian union has started taking off - that makes Kazakhstan an equal partner in that case - which would be nice for a Mars mission.
If the USA wants to play its silly political games and miss out on the biggest adventure of mankind, then good riddance, and the first man on Mars will be a Russian, Chinese or perhaps European.
Sorry if I seem horrible but I am SOOOO fed up with the USA right now, and if it's determined to miss out, then I'm not going to complain.
Not even sure if the US can actually spare the expense!
With China or Russia it's as easy as setting aside the budget and going for it - maybe even according to the old "plan" system. Both have next to no foreign debt and a political systems that makes it much easier to commit to a long term project. I don't think either can do it now, but in 10-15 years it may be possible - the USA may well be in a very deep hole financially by then, or up to its neck in one or more expensive war which seems to be the normal state of affairs. With the USA everything has to bring quick profit nowadays. Mars is more adventure, science and prestige. It's not that I don't want the USA to be part, but if it won't work with Russia, well then...
Last edited by martienne (2014-04-16 15:55:13)
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Sorry I just have to clarify what I said about cities in the USSR during WW2. The main parts that were destroyed were Belarus (White Russia which is now a separate country for the first time in history) Ukraine, Leningrad and some other parts of Western Russia. Leningrad suffered terribly in the siege. Some say people resorted to cannibalism and the bombs were constantly falling. It's a city of a good 5 million inhabitants. Some people in Western Ukraine supported the Nazis, however.
I tend to spend the most time in Belarus, not Russia proper, that's why I said what I said. Most of Belarus was essentially levelled with the ground. I think 1/4 of the entire population of the Belorussian SSR was killed in WW2.
In Minsk, there was practically not a building standing other than a church after the war. It was rebuilt very nicely though, after the war. It's SO deep in people's psyches, you can't imagine.
The Victory Day parades are not about trying to scare others, like Western media makes out. It's about re-assuring people "that will never happen again" and acknowledge the brothers, sisters, parents and friends of people who are still alive today with a party in the evening.
There are many millions of adults in the ex USSR who grew up as orphans because all their families were killed.
The Victory Day on Crimea this year should be spectacular and the public mood unbelievable. I'd love to see it.Whoever doesn't know about the enormous destruction that's been brought to Russia by countless invasions through the centuries need to read up on history. Not just Germany and France. Sweden, Mongols, Turks and countless others have been doing serious damage in Russia. I am not one of these history geek Russians but it's just a long history of invasions, basically.
It didn't help that Russia's leaders of the past were prepared to sacrifice lives and land in quite a cavalier way to stop the enemies.
Russia beneath talk, ideology etc, etc is a very paranoid country and the paranoia is about another event that will DESTROY the country. WW2 did it, disillusion of the USSR did it. At this point most people just want stability and predictability.
The destruction is usually coming from the West. That's why Russia wants a little buffer between itself and Europe. Certainly no NATO bases on its borders
As for Eastern Europe after WW2 - that was all agreed in Yalta, and Stalin simply adhered to the agreement. If it was such a big issue for the West, it shouldn't have signed the agreement to begin with. Typical double standard to agree one day and then start undermining it the next. All the USSR did was follow through on what was agreed. Many of the countries actually turned their back on the USSR and did their own flavour of socialism and speaking quite strongly against the Soviet Union. Like Yugoslavia, Romania, Albania. And note that the USA still has bases in Western Europe. The USSR never had anywhere near as many foreign bases in Europe, as the USA had,almost all of them were in Germany.
Most of the Eastern European countries were very poor and backwards at start of WW2, compared with Western Europe. Socialism had its faults but to many it meant a huge lift in opportunities and equality for some really poor areas.
With all the cr@p that's been going on in these countries over the last 20 years its not unusual to speak to people who would take socialism back in a flash. They just don't get any time in media; but it's quite common to hear such comments, actually. Communists are the main opposition in quite a few of the Eastern countries. Not to mention their view of the imported junk culture and values that have been adopted in Western Europe.
Those people are known as quislings, Germany had those in the occupied nations it conquered during World War II, and the Soviets had them after World War II, when it held onto the territory it conquered from the Germans. The Yalta conference was agreed to by Roosevelt because he didn't want to go to war with the USSR after the defeat of Germany, I also must add that the various governments in exile weren't consulted about the Yalta Conference, they were given no say about the future of their countries. I don't think the Poles in and of themselves, whether they were Communist or not would have chosen to move Poland westward giving up territory to the Soviet Union as they took territory away from Germany. I'm sure they would have been happy to take German land, I just don't see them voluntarily giving up land to the Soviets, and they weren't given a choice in the matter. Now since Poland was forced to give up territory by the Soviets to the Soviets, and the Soviets no longer exist, I think Poland would be well within its rights to take back the land it was forced to give up by the Soviets, should the Ukraine government collapse due to Russian invasion. I would be greatly disappointed in the Polish Government if they allowed that opportunity to pass them by as Russia absorbed all of Ukraine. Very rarely does an opportunity every come by to right a historic wrong. I think Communism probably had more support in Poland before World War II than after, especially after the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, where the Soviets stood by and allowed the Germans to crush Polish resistance before the took Warsaw away from the Germans, and there is also the Katyn massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre) which very much soured the mood towards Communism among Poles, people who sympathized with the Soviets are considered very much the same way we consider people like Benedict Arnold in our country.
Much of this stuff about suspicion of the West is fabricated, as I said before the West isn't a country, Russia has no real cause to be suspicious or paranoid about us, because we never really did anything to them. From my youngest days, I never really understood by the Russians confused us with the Germans, after we helped them fight the Germans, that to me is very ungrateful. The "west" is just a convenient grouping the Soviets used in order to broad brush the responsibility for the crimes of the Germans onto us, it is no better actually than the Germans categorizing the Russians as "The Slavs" which they meant to be a slave race than conveniently died to make room for German colonists on their territory.
I don't want Russia to be destroyed, I think we need a counterbalance to China and to Islamic radicalism, so basically we need Russia to continue to exist, but I also don't want Russia making trouble on its western border like it is doing now! We could be a great ally to Russia, if they only give us a chance. There is no real reason for Russia to go to war with the West, all that will be accomplished by doing so is the deaths of one billion European People so China could spread out onto our territory and inhabit our homes. I think Russia and the USA are similar cultures and would make more natural allies than enemies, especially when facing foes like Islamic terrorism. I don't know why Russia feels like it must be our enemy when we could really use their help in fighting the Islamicists. Why does it always have to be Europeans vs. Europeans, when their are so many non-Europeans that wish to destroy our mutual civilization? It makes little sense to me!
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Canada's relationship with the US is like brothers; we can bicker like brothers. When Canadians feel particularly oppressed, or when Americans get condescending, we can be critical. It has been said that most Americans cannot find Canada on a map. I'm born and raised in Canada, but lived and worked in the US twice. For 6 months in 1997 I worked in Colonial Heights, with an apartment in the town of Chester, both are suburbs of Richmond, Virginia. For 10 months (June 1999 - March 2000), I lived and worked in Miami, Florida. While there I discovered that most Americans have never left their county; ever in their entire lives. Mars Society members tend to be educated, informed Americans, but that's not the average. And getting any news outside the US was difficult, I had to regularly go on the internet to view Canadian news websites. The only time American news would report on anything outside America was when events directly affected an American. They're very insular. Half the TV channels in Canada are American channels, but living there really did feel like another country. And a lot of subtle but important things are different: Canadian banks offer foreign exchange at every branch, but American banks don't even know how, couldn't even exchange Canadian currency. They had to mail a Canadian cheque to their head office in another state. Paying utility bills at an ATM machine was awkward, the way Canadian banks did it a decade before. Canadian banks can cash a cheque from any other Canadian bank or credit union, but American banks have great difficulty dealing with other American banks outside their state. American banks can't sell you a money order, but a convenience store called 7-Eleven can. Even buying an airline ticket is bizarre: they wouldn't let me purchase a ticket with a credit card, because I wasn't an American citizen. Even though I was a resident in the US, working for a government of the US (in Miami I worked for the county government), had a work visa, and my utility bills were for my American address. They had a completely separate special case, as if I was a terrorist or something. In Canada, refusing a credit card because of nationality is illegal. The process they put me through to buy a ticket for a weekend trip to New Orleans would be illegal in Canada.
Their education system sucks. UN surveys of education consistently rank the US low, usually 17th in the world. When I lived there I discovered the amount of money they spend on public school, per student, in city core areas is the same as wealthy suburban areas. But the quality of education is not at all the same. Core area schools in Richmond were run-down, damaged, and very poor quality. While quality of education in rich suburban areas is the same as education at a public school in Canada. Americans go on about how private school is so much better than public school, and in their country it is. While in Canada, education in public school is pretty much the same as private schools. That's why UN surveys usually rank Canadian education about 5th in the world.
But for all their short comings, a lot of Americans are good people. Many Americans did protest the invasion of Iraq before it happened, saying that was a war over oil, not ethical values or security. Most Americans did understand that Al Quaeda was in Afghanistan, not Iraq. So many educated Americans do get it. The problem is the rich and powerful are in control in America, the average voter has very little impact. They have a democracy, and on some issues like cancelling funding for the Hubble space telescope or James Webb Space Telescope, they can listen. But that's if it's something Congress sees as minor. Issues such as foreign policy are dictated by rich and powerful. The rich and powerful are only concerned with getting more rich and more powerful. Americans have protested against Obama using drones to kill individuals in foreign countries, saying he's only creating new enemies. Notice how much the US government ignores those protests.
And yes, America has the death penalty. Canada doesn't. America has a larger proportion of their population in jail than any other country in the world. Not Russia, not Iraq, not Cuba, not any other country, it's America. Yes, they have problems. But two wrongs do not make a right. I will never defend the Soviet Union. Under Yeltsin, Russia became a democracy with a free market economy. That created problems, and Russia still hasn't worked through all those problems. Yes, a change like that is big. Russia went from Tsars to an oligarchy with communism, so adopting democracy and a free market economy for the first time is not easy. But what we're seeing in Ukraine is not excusable.
In 1990 Iraq invaded and annexed Kuwait. The 1991 Persian Gulf War was to stop that. World War 1 was to end wars between European countries, wars to annex territory from each other. The reason for the 1991 war was to ensure that practice does not come back. So what's going on in Ukraine right now is a major back-slide. This is going back to the values and problems of the 1800s.
I agree with that. Canada and the United States are brother countries, and brothers should help each other out. I'm not much into sibling rivalry, maybe you didn't get along with your brothers, but to me they are family.
Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-04-16 16:53:39)
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Yes you are right that "the West" is a fabrication. The US fabricated it with the countries where it has military bases, and lately a few others. "The West" means the values of commercialism above all else, value systems based on stripping down all morals and traditions and promoting the US rock'n'roll & consumerism lifestyle as the ideal across the globe with mass media.. Then accusing everybody who doesn't dance along this tune of being some kind of horribly oppressive reactionary. Music, TV, films etc.
So sure, it's fabricated, but that doesn't mean it's not real or that it doesn't impact the world or make many people feel threatened.
As for Muslim terrorism - the way to stop it is to leave the Middle East completely alone, other than doing honest business with it, as needed. And not support Saudi Arabia where most of the Wahabis, Taqfiris and seriously dangerous (from a European perspective) moslems come from.
USA interestingly does the opposite. Goes and meddles in moderate Middle Eastern countries like Syria and turns moderate Mohammeds into radicals. It actively supports the source of most moslem mischief - Saudi Arabia
Most of the alleged 9-11 bombers were Saudis and the whole operation was funded with Saudi money.
So the USA goes and starts wars in Afghanistan and Iraq!!! and a cold war with Iran which is less extreme than Saudi and has no agenda outside the Middle East. And arms radicals in Syria creating a civil war which spilled over and created millions of refugees.
Europe could have avoided problems with Moslems by not allowing so many of them into the EU as labour and refugees - now the only way to deal with it is to accept them fully so they go mainstream and aren't marginalised and radicalised at the bottom of society.
There is nothing wrong with the religion per se - normal moslems are nice and the religion has a lot of nice sides to it. The problem is Saudi Wahabism that promotes the idea that all non moslems are [mortal] enemies, and general fanaticism. Unfortunately the Saudis are everywhere where there are moslems who are marginalised - preach their crazy talk, build their mosques and give them money.
The USSR had no problems with 65 million moslems within its borders. 1-2 more generations and they would have been completely mainstream. Most of them already are. Unfortunately in the 90s Saudi-backed wahabis prozelytized them and gave them money when they were broke, disillusioned and angry... while the US was happy to support anything that undermined Russian influence in moslem areas of Russia, or ex Soviet territories. And there has been much problem since, in Kaukausus and in parts of Central Asia where the wahabis got a foothold.
Tom, I just want to re-iterate that I don't want to talk politics with you. I perceive you as a fanatic/extremist of Bush/Reagan calibre. You support what I see as American terrorism. Drones, spying, a network of bases and invasion or villification of any country that won't agree to the US agenda.
I find myself provoked, insulted and just annoyed. I'm sure that there is much I could learn from you about US history and culture but there is nothing you can teach me about European or Russian politics or history. Your views seem to be a projection of everything that annoys me about the USA.
It was stupid of me to get involved in this thread when I came to the forum to learn about Mars. I am aware that nobody in an English speaking forum will share my views for the most part, but plenty will want to quarrel. This is a complete distraction and waste of time. Let's just agree to disagree. Ukraine will play out regardless of what any of us think.
Last edited by martienne (2014-04-17 06:44:11)
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Tom Kalbfus wrote:martienne wrote:Sorry I just have to clarify what I said about cities in the USSR during WW2. The main parts that were destroyed were Belarus (White Russia which is now a separate country for the first time in history) Ukraine, Leningrad and some other parts of Western Russia. Leningrad suffered terribly in the siege. Some say people resorted to cannibalism and the bombs were constantly falling. It's a city of a good 5 million inhabitants. Some people in Western Ukraine supported the Nazis, however.
I tend to spend the most time in Belarus, not Russia proper, that's why I said what I said. Most of Belarus was essentially levelled with the ground. I think 1/4 of the entire population of the Belorussian SSR was killed in WW2.
In Minsk, there was practically not a building standing other than a church after the war. It was rebuilt very nicely though, after the war. It's SO deep in people's psyches, you can't imagine.
The Victory Day parades are not about trying to scare others, like Western media makes out. It's about re-assuring people "that will never happen again" and acknowledge the brothers, sisters, parents and friends of people who are still alive today with a party in the evening.
There are many millions of adults in the ex USSR who grew up as orphans because all their families were killed.
The Victory Day on Crimea this year should be spectacular and the public mood unbelievable. I'd love to see it.Whoever doesn't know about the enormous destruction that's been brought to Russia by countless invasions through the centuries need to read up on history. Not just Germany and France. Sweden, Mongols, Turks and countless others have been doing serious damage in Russia. I am not one of these history geek Russians but it's just a long history of invasions, basically.
It didn't help that Russia's leaders of the past were prepared to sacrifice lives and land in quite a cavalier way to stop the enemies.
Russia beneath talk, ideology etc, etc is a very paranoid country and the paranoia is about another event that will DESTROY the country. WW2 did it, disillusion of the USSR did it. At this point most people just want stability and predictability.
The destruction is usually coming from the West. That's why Russia wants a little buffer between itself and Europe. Certainly no NATO bases on its borders
As for Eastern Europe after WW2 - that was all agreed in Yalta, and Stalin simply adhered to the agreement. If it was such a big issue for the West, it shouldn't have signed the agreement to begin with. Typical double standard to agree one day and then start undermining it the next. All the USSR did was follow through on what was agreed. Many of the countries actually turned their back on the USSR and did their own flavour of socialism and speaking quite strongly against the Soviet Union. Like Yugoslavia, Romania, Albania. And note that the USA still has bases in Western Europe. The USSR never had anywhere near as many foreign bases in Europe, as the USA had,almost all of them were in Germany.
Most of the Eastern European countries were very poor and backwards at start of WW2, compared with Western Europe. Socialism had its faults but to many it meant a huge lift in opportunities and equality for some really poor areas.
With all the cr@p that's been going on in these countries over the last 20 years its not unusual to speak to people who would take socialism back in a flash. They just don't get any time in media; but it's quite common to hear such comments, actually. Communists are the main opposition in quite a few of the Eastern countries. Not to mention their view of the imported junk culture and values that have been adopted in Western Europe.
Those people are known as quislings, Germany had those in the occupied nations it conquered during World War II, and the Soviets had them after World War II, when it held onto the territory it conquered from the Germans. The Yalta conference was agreed to by Roosevelt because he didn't want to go to war with the USSR after the defeat of Germany, I also must add that the various governments in exile weren't consulted about the Yalta Conference, they were given no say about the future of their countries. I don't think the Poles in and of themselves, whether they were Communist or not would have chosen to move Poland westward giving up territory to the Soviet Union as they took territory away from Germany. I'm sure they would have been happy to take German land, I just don't see them voluntarily giving up land to the Soviets, and they weren't given a choice in the matter. Now since Poland was forced to give up territory by the Soviets to the Soviets, and the Soviets no longer exist, I think Poland would be well within its rights to take back the land it was forced to give up by the Soviets, should the Ukraine government collapse due to Russian invasion. I would be greatly disappointed in the Polish Government if they allowed that opportunity to pass them by as Russia absorbed all of Ukraine. Very rarely does an opportunity every come by to right a historic wrong. I think Communism probably had more support in Poland before World War II than after, especially after the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, where the Soviets stood by and allowed the Germans to crush Polish resistance before the took Warsaw away from the Germans, and there is also the Katyn massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre) which very much soured the mood towards Communism among Poles, people who sympathized with the Soviets are considered very much the same way we consider people like Benedict Arnold in our country.
Much of this stuff about suspicion of the West is fabricated, as I said before the West isn't a country, Russia has no real cause to be suspicious or paranoid about us, because we never really did anything to them. From my youngest days, I never really understood by the Russians confused us with the Germans, after we helped them fight the Germans, that to me is very ungrateful. The "west" is just a convenient grouping the Soviets used in order to broad brush the responsibility for the crimes of the Germans onto us, it is no better actually than the Germans categorizing the Russians as "The Slavs" which they meant to be a slave race than conveniently died to make room for German colonists on their territory.
I don't want Russia to be destroyed, I think we need a counterbalance to China and to Islamic radicalism, so basically we need Russia to continue to exist, but I also don't want Russia making trouble on its western border like it is doing now! We could be a great ally to Russia, if they only give us a chance. There is no real reason for Russia to go to war with the West, all that will be accomplished by doing so is the deaths of one billion European People so China could spread out onto our territory and inhabit our homes. I think Russia and the USA are similar cultures and would make more natural allies than enemies, especially when facing foes like Islamic terrorism. I don't know why Russia feels like it must be our enemy when we could really use their help in fighting the Islamicists. Why does it always have to be Europeans vs. Europeans, when their are so many non-Europeans that wish to destroy our mutual civilization? It makes little sense to me!
Yes you are right that "the West" is a fabrication. The US fabricated it with the countries where it has military bases, and lately a few others. It's the values of commercialism above all else, value systems based on stripping down all morals and values and promoting it acoss the globe with mass media - then accusing everybody who doesn't dance along this tune as some kind of horribly oppressive reactionary. Music, TV, films etc.
So sure, it's fabricated, but that doesn't mean it's not real or that it doesn't impact the world or make many people feel threatened.
I believe you are misinformed about Western Civilization, it wasn't created by the United States of America, it began in ancient Greece with ideas like democracy in Athens, it continued through the Roman Empire, and it spread with Christianity, of which Russia partook. Your definition of "western civilization" is not the same as is accepted by most historians. Christianity is a western religion, and since Russia is Christian, it is part of the west. What is alien to it is what Lenin brought, he was a non-Christian ex-Jew who apparently had some issues with his own religion, but he liked the controlling aspects it had over human lives so he invented and political and economic philosophy that took the place of orthodox Judaism and imposed it on Europe. Notice that orthodox Judaism highly regulates the lives of those deeply religious Jews, telling them who they can marry and what they can eat, Communism does much the same in the more secular sphere. The most important thing to remember is Communism isn't Russian, it was adopted from some foreign source, because the adopters thought it was a great way to control people and have power over them.
As for Muslim terrorism - the way to stop it is to leave the Middle East completely alone, other than doing honest business with it, as needed. And not support Saudi Arabia where most of the Wahabis, Taqfiris and seriously dangerous (from a European perspective) moslems come from.
If we are trading with it, we are not isolating it, the problem is some of the more "conservative" elements in the middle east don't like the spread of western ideas into their region that comes with trade with the west, and because they don't know what to do, they lash out and kill some "westerners" Ideally they would like the entire Middle east to be a "hermit Kingdom" like North Korea but under Islam instead of communism and by the way run by them. Communism an Islam have some common features, as both are designed for controlling individuals, telling them what to eat, who they can marry and what sort of work they can and cannot do. Islam is a cousin of Judaism except for a more heavy emphasis on conversion and forced conversion through Islamic conquest, Judaism spreads mostly through their members having children, but other than that Islam is similar to the Orthodox variety of Judaism. Communism sprang from Orthodox Jews that grew disillusioned with their religion, but wanted to keep its controlling aspects.
[USA interestingly does the opposite. Goes and meddles in moderate Middle Eastern countries like Syria and turns moderate Mohammeds into radicals. It actively supports the source of most moslem mischief - Saudi Arabia
Well that's Obama's policy, not mine I like the regime in Egypt just fine if the alternative is Islamic radicals that attack the west, as for Saudi Arabia, that is why we need to develop our own oil resources through fracking and building a pipeline from Canada. We do need to depend on unstable monarchies with a lot of people wanting power in the background with knives drawn and wishing to use Islam as their vehicle to achieve it.
Most of the alleged 9-11 bombers were Saudis and the whole operation was funded with Saudi money.
So the USA goes and starts wars in Afghanistan and Iraq!!! and a cold war with Iran which is less extreme than Saudi and has no agenda outside the Middle East.
My agenda is to reduce the value of the oil in the middle east, thus reducing the value of that which they fight over. I think as goes the price of oil in the middle east, so too goes the prospects of radical islam. The long war is won by finding alternatives to middle east oil, and one of those alternative is domestic oil, I think the fight against global warming should take a back seat to our struggle with radical Islam. One war at a time, and we're not even sure Global Warming is happening, this past year seems colder than most, with an early winter storm in November and a late snow in spring.
And arms radicals in Syria creating a civil war which spilled over and created millions of refugees.
if the choice is between a dictator and armed radicals, its not my fault! The locals need to come up with some better ideas that are worth fighting over, otherwise all they do is kill each other and create refugees, so I'm thinking, why don't those Refugees fight for something like Democracy instead of letting themselves be pushed around by dictators and radicals. They don't seem ready to do this yet, so until that happens they'll suffer.
Europe could have avoided problems with Moslems by not allowing so many of them into the EU as labour and refugees - now the only way to deal with it is to accept them fully so they go mainstream and aren't marginalised and radicalised at the bottom of society.
They could try to convert them to their way of thinking, and restrict further immigration so they assimilate. There is not much difference between middle easterners and Europeans other than the way they think. Islam is essentially a controlling cult that expanded way beyond its bounds when the Eastern Roman Empire was weak, it is a way of governing people, controlling their actions and behavior. Those conservatives that run these Islamic societies guard their power and their leadership in Islamic societies jealously, they resist the secularization that comes from the west, and they often resort to violence and fanaticism to guard their power and privileges. I believe the West is winning this struggle, otherwise the Islamacists wouldn't be feeling threatened and acting so violently. We really can't help spreading our ideas, because they work, the threat we pose to Islam is because we exist and we're successful, I don't see how we can stop doing that other than by ceasing to exist or by ceasing to be successful. if Communism were to triumph then we'd be less successful and the Islamacists would feel less threatened by us, but that's not a solution I'd advocate, we basically need to contain the radicals until they learn how to behave in a civilized society.
There is nothing wrong with the religion per se - normal moslems are nice and the religion has a lot of nice sides to it. The problem is Saudi Wahabism that promotes the idea that all non moslems are [mortal] enemies, and general fanaticism. Unfortunately the Saudis are everywhere where there are moslems who are marginalised - preach their crazy talk, build their mosques and give them money.
They can't trade and go to war with their trading partners at the same time, one always comes at the expense of the other. We are dropping the price of oil, which is their bread and butter, and eventually we will get buy without having to buy their oil, and the Middle East will lose out as it becomes more isolated and backwards in relation to the rest of the World, if they do not improve their behavior.
The USSR had no problems with 65 million moslems within its borders. 1-2 more generations and they would have been completely mainstream. Most of them already are. Unfortunately in the 90s Saudi-backed wahabis prozelytized them and gave them money when they were broke, disillusioned and angry... while the US was happy to support anything that undermined Russian influence in moslem areas of Russia, or ex Soviet territories. And there has been much problem since, in Kaukausus and in parts of Central Asia where the wahabis got a foothold.
its the Russian Imperial tendencies that I oppose, not Russia itself.
Tom, I just want to re-iterate that I don't want to talk politics with you. I perceive you as a fanatic/extremist of Bush/Reagan calibre. You support what I see as American terrorism. Drones, spying, a network of bases and invasion or villification of any country that won't agree to the US agenda.
So what's so wrong with US agenda? your from France right? It was part of US agenda, for instance, that France remain free of the Nazis, and many Americans gave their lives to free France including some of my relatives. Had we followed a philosophy similar to what you advocate, the Nazis would have remained in control of Europe. As we would not have interfered in Europe's business. Would the Soviets have defeated the Nazis without our help? I'm not so sure. The Third Reich was definitely a more efficient state that the Soviet Union. I think that given time a Europe conquered by the Nazis could have been the most powerful country on Earth, Hitler's big mistake was to invade the Soviet Union, had he held back, Western Europe has more people than the Soviets did, it would have been like a modern "Roman Empire" if given a chance. It was not in US foreign policy interests to let such a modern European Empire to develop and be a threat to us, so we helped such countries like France to regain their independence and survive. Do you disagree with this agenda?
I find myself provoked, insulted and just annoyed. I'm sure that there is much I could learn from you about US history and culture but there is nothing you can teach me about European or Russian politics or history. Your views seem to be a projection of everything that annoys me about the USA.
It was stupid of me to get involved in this thread when I came to the forum to learn about Mars. This is a complete distraction.
How am I insulting you? I mean no personal offense, I just disagree with you, that's all. I don't see why the USA and France should be enemies either, why do you seem to hold that opinion. It is small countries that should be our natural allies against the larger ones that want to gobble then up. Why do you think its in your country's interest to see Russia get larger at its neighbor's expense? Do you think the Ukraine should lose its independence just to give the United States foreign policy a "black eye"? That is rather unfortunate I think. There is no real alternative to market economics, the Soviet system was nothing more than a system of slavery, it worked as much as slave plantations used to work in America's south. If you whip someone for not doing work, we will work to avoid getting whipped, but I prefer positive incentives in your employer not owning your and beating you if you don't do what he says. The Soviet system relied on gulags and forced labor and threats of forced labor if they didn't produce their quotas, I don't want that system to spread.
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Yes you are right that "the West" is a fabrication. The US fabricated it with the countries where it has military bases, and lately a few others. "The West" means the values of commercialism above all else, value systems based on stripping down all morals and traditions and promoting the US rock'n'roll & consumerism lifestyle as the ideal across the globe with mass media.. Then accusing everybody who doesn't dance along this tune of being some kind of horribly oppressive reactionary. Music, TV, films etc.
There are people in "the West" who complain about that. Including many people who live *IN* the USA. "Build-in obscolescence" or "planned obscolescence" means products that are designed for a limited life then fall apart. This has been going on since the 1920s. Before that it was common for tools, household goods, etc. to be inherited from generation to generation. Now crap barely lasts a few years. And they do this with the most expensive items. In 2003 I met a car repair technician who complained that the new model of Honda Civic was changed, the bearing for steering linkage was replaced. It used to be a steel ball bearing, but the new one used a nylon bushing. That bushing will handle a certain known number of flexes, so when driving over a typical road that means a pre-determined number of kilometres/miles before it wears out. When I told one businessman he said the nylon bushing is so cheap it's less expensive to just replace it. I told him the steel ball bearing cost $2.50 while the nylon bushing cost $0.17, however labour to replace it just once cost between $50 and $100! This is to pressure the owner to throw the car in the garbage and replace it.
Another example: my old analogue Nokia cell phone from the mid-1990s was well built. The "CDMA One" cell phone I got next was cheap plastic crap. When I upgraded, I sold my Nokia. But my "CDMA One" broke.
Or a less expensive example: I bought a can opener from the Dollar Store. Just a metal kitchen device, turn a handle to open a can. The can opener had a poor quality cutting blade that bent, and cheap plastic bushing that fell apart after one year. It looked like an old can opener that would last decades, but this one was cheap crap from China.
So if Russia wants to sell stuff, then how about well built stuff. Things that don't fall apart. The Russian minister of transportation came to Winnipeg a number of years ago with a proposal to establish a trade route between the Russian port of Murmansk and the Canadian port of Churchill. Canada has a rail line from Churchill to Winnipeg. He also asked Winnipeg to expand air freight at the Winnipeg airport. He wanted Winnipeg to be their major access to the North American market. We did expand the airport, but the only ship that arrived at Churchill brought a load of fertilizer. The next Canadian province is Saskatchewan; they export a lot of fertilizer. We don't need foreign fertilizer. If Russia was to manufacture high quality stuff, things that last, they would sell.
Last edited by RobertDyck (2014-04-17 15:37:45)
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Yes ok and I am sorry about ranting. It just gets me so much, that people believe in lies and propaganda. I was hoping I could at least make somebody think twice what they believe.
As for trade between Russia and Canada - that would be fantastic - Russia and Canada have a lot in common, don't they. But right now it looks like a new cold war is going to kick off with the USA throwing all the tools out of the pram with sanctions and the lot. It would affect Canada no doubt.
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Jews Are Being Ordered to Register in Russian-Controlled Ukraine
Jews over 16 in the Ukrainian city of Donetsk are being told to pay a special tax and register their identities with the pro-Russian militants who have taken over the town, according to multiple reports.
Early in the Euromaidan revolution that swept Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich, a Russian ally, from power in Kiev, pro-Russian media had sought to portray Euromaidan as an anti-semitic, fascist-led movement that would wreak havoc on the Ukraine's Jews. But if the Donetsk orders are to believed, it's Russian forces and their proxies that now threaten Jews' safety and freedom of movement.
The orders were distributed on flyers throughout the city, according to the wire service JTA and USA TODAY. Those flyers bear the name and signature of Denis Pushilin, leader of the Russian-sympathetic separatist rebels who wrested control of Donetsk from Ukraine earlier in the month. Pushilin's forces have since patrolled the streets in black ski masks, AK47s slung over their shoulders.
Pushilin confirmed to one source that the flyers belonged to his group, which is calling itself "Donetsk's temporary government," although elsewhere he distanced himself from the flyers' content.
The Former Commodore
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It's the Ukrainian nationalists that don't like Jews, not Russians. The Jews in Ukraine are Russian speaking and it's just not a big deal to Russians if somebody is Jewish.
For example Odessa is a major Jewish hub and it's completely Russian speaking and had pro-Russian manifestations.
This doesn't add up at all.
Jews should be a lot more concerned about the various Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis in Kiev - they really ARE antisemitic. In Russia nobody cares because there are tons of minorities already, and plenty of the richest or most influential people in Russia are Jewish. It's a non-issue to Russians.
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It's... not... Russia... that is controlling Donetsk...
Russian speaking militants =/= Russian military.
This may well get Israel involved, though. Perhaps even a full evacuation from Eastern Ukraine.
"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony
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It's the Ukrainian nationalists that don't like Jews, not Russians. The Jews in Ukraine are Russian speaking and it's just not a big deal to Russians if somebody is Jewish.
For example Odessa is a major Jewish hub and it's completely Russian speaking and had pro-Russian manifestations.
This doesn't add up at all.Jews should be a lot more concerned about the various Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis in Kiev - they really ARE antisemitic. In Russia nobody cares because there are tons of minorities already, and plenty of the richest or most influential people in Russia are Jewish. It's a non-issue to Russians.
Well you can believe what you want to believe, there are also people who won't believe the Holocaust happened either, no matter what. There are people who believe the Apollo Program was a hoax. So I have a feeling you matter what the Russians do, you'll feel they they are innocent of whatever it was.
How come then its the Russian parts of Ukraine where we have these reports of anti-Semitism. Also didn't Stalin order the assassination of Leon Trotsky, and Leon Trotsky was a Jew? Why are all these Russian Jews in Israel, what compelled them to leave their country fro Israel, maybe it was the unfriendly treatment they got in Russia. Also wasn't Russia famous for its pograms against the Jews. I'm sure the Russian Revolution didn't make Russians love Jews all of the sudden, and why were the remaining Jews expelled from Poland when it was a Warsaw Pact country and under the direction of Moscow? Andrei Sakarov was a Jew, why was he treated so badly by the Soviet regime if they didn't have a bias against Jews, meanwhile some Jews in the United States were trying to steal atomic bomb secrets for Stalin, duh!
Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-04-17 16:09:20)
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It's... not... Russia... that is controlling Donetsk...
Russian speaking militants =/= Russian military.
This may well get Israel involved, though. Perhaps even a full evacuation from Eastern Ukraine.
That and maybe Hitler was framed! Maybe it was only those disloyal minions of his that plotted World War II. Lots of things are possible, but how likely are all those uniformed Russians not being part of the Russian military.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … raine.html
So are Russians capable of lying or are they always unscrupulously honest? Have you ever had your Computer hacked by a Russian programmer, and why is the Russian Mafia so prevalent if Russians are so honest? Russians have been lying for 72 years during the Soviet era, and old habits die hard!
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Current intelligence indicates that this was not done by the so called "People's Republic of Donetsk", which only controls one building anyway, but by a group of this looking to use the crisis to extort money from the local Jewish population. You're making yourself look bad, Tom.
-Josh
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Geneva statement: The Guardian (highlights are their's)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a … e-coverage
• Both the United States and Russia took a wait-and-see approach to a deal struck in Geneva Thursday to de-escalate the crisis in Ukraine. The US gave the deal "several days" to produce results. Read the agreement here.
• The deal provides for a disarmament of "illegal" militias, a withdrawal by protesters from government buildings in the east and "public places" including in Kiev, and a general amnesty. An OSCE observer mission would grow.
• The deal pledged "additional support" for the Ukrainian economy. Russia has said Kiev owes more than $2bn in gas payments. The European commission warned Russia not to roil gas markets.
• US president Barack Obama echoed secretary of state John Kerry's praise for a plan for establishing a reinvented, autonomous Ukraine laid out in Geneva by Ukrainian foreign minister Andrii Deshchytsia.
• Deep mistrust remained. Russia accused Kiev of taking up arms against its own people and Obama called the Russian mobilization on the Ukrainian border a "gesture of intimidation."
• In a televised call-in event, Russian president Vladimir Putin seemed to leave room for "understanding" with Ukraine while dropping provocative lines about the historic disposition of east Ukraine as Russian.
• The United States pledged nonlethal aid to the Ukrainian military – medical supplies, helmets, water purification devices and generators.
• The Russian airline Aeroflot said Ukraine informed it of new tight restrictions on the entry of Russian men to Ukraine. The Russian foreign ministry demanded an explanation.
• A large pro-Kiev rally played out in Donetsk. A reported march by pro-Russian forces on the Donetsk airport turned out to be not well attended.
• At least one person was killed overnight Wednesday and 15 wounded when a crowd of about 200 pro-Russian demonstrators tried to storm a base in the centre of Mariupol.
The "provocative lines" mentioned above:
Despite Putin's conciliatory noises, reference to the "new Russia" in his call-in should send shivers down spines in Kiev.
The question is to ensure the rights and interests of the Russian southeast. It’s new Russia. Kharkiv, Lugansk, Donetsk, Odessa were not part of Ukraine in czarist times, they were transferred in 1920. Why? God knows. Then for various reasons these areas were gone, and the people stayed there - we need to encourage them to find a solution.”
The United States pledge mentioned above:
Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel says the U.S. will send nonlethal assistance to Ukraine's military in light of what he called Russia's ongoing destabilizing actions there, the Associated Press reports:
Hagel said at a Pentagon news conference Thursday that the military assistance to Ukraine will include medical supplies, helmets, water purification units and power generators.
Ukraine has asked for military assistance from the U.S., a request that was believed to include lethal aid like weapons and ammunition. Obama administration officials have said they were not actively considering lethal assistance for fear it could escalate an already tense situation.
The U.S. has already sent Ukraine other help, such as prepackaged meals for its military.
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And from the Russia perspective, this article from RT.COM
http://rt.com/news/geneva-document-ukra … ation-224/
Russia “does not want to send any troops to Ukraine,” Lavrov stressed, answering journalists’ questions. Moscow’s chief concern is that the rights of all the Ukrainian regions, including those with Russian-speaking majorities, must be taken into account in the constitutional reform.
“We have absolutely no wish to send our troops to Ukraine, to the territory of a friendly state, to the land of a brotherly nation. This is against the fundamental interests of the Russian Federation,” Lavrov said.
Calling the recent NATO statements on Ukraine’s neutrality “unacceptable,” Lavrov stressed that pushing for changes in the country’s non-aligned status will “undermine the efforts to resolve the crisis” in Ukraine.
“The fact that Ukraine has chosen non-aligned status and enshrined it in its law must be respected by all and there should not be any attempts to doubt it or to erode its meaning,” the Russian Foreign Minister stressed.
This is "politician speak". When a politician says "does not want" and "no wish to", that is a threat to do exactly that. So Russia is threatening to send in troops, while trying to blame the other side.
Calls for "non-aligned status" sound good. But...
“Among the steps that have to be taken are: the disarmament of all the illegal armed groups, and the return of all the occupied administrative buildings,” Lavrov told journalists at the Thursday briefing.
...
“It is impossible to solve the problem of illegally seized buildings in one region of Ukraine when the illegally seized buildings are not freed in another,” he said.“Those who took power in Kiev as a result of a coup - if they consider themselves as representing the interests of all the Ukrainians - must show the initiative, extend a friendly hand to the regions, listen to their concerns, and sit down with them at the negotiation table,” Lavrov said.
So he is demanding the current government be treated the same as the armed militias. And demanding the current government surrender, re-instating the Russian puppet president.
According to the Russian top diplomat, the Americans now have a “decisive influence” on the Kiev authorities, which should be used for resolving the crisis.
He may have a point there. More and more, this is looking like the Cuban Missile Crisis.
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I had argued to let Crimea go, and used the same argument as Putin. But I cannot support taking a single square centimetre of additional territory. He just stated intent to take Kharkiv, Lugansk, Donetsk, Odessa, and called it "New Russia". I can only hope this is a negotiating ploy. Continuing with that will mean war.
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Current intelligence indicates that this was not done by the so called "People's Republic of Donetsk", which only controls one building anyway, but by a group of this looking to use the crisis to extort money from the local Jewish population. You're making yourself look bad, Tom.
Do the Russians have a long history of antisemitism or not? That is the question. Seems like Russia has not been a real good friend of Israel either, why do they support Syria, which lobs missiles over to Israel every now and then killing civilians, why is Russia helping Iran with its nuclear program when it knows Iran is not a friend of Israel? Knowing all that, I would assume there must be a great deal of antisemitism in Russia as their foreign policy is to make friends with nations that hate Israel, so why is it so hard to believe that a group of Russians would hate Jews? I don't know why people are trying to paint Ukrainians all as Nazis, what do they intend to do about it, kill them? Why doesn't Ukraine have a right to exist? someone says, "Hey their Nazis! Lets wipe them off the map!"
The thing is after the Russians overthrew their communist government, we treated Russia as just another European country. Do the Russians think they are better than the other European states? Is their per capita income higher than Great Britain's or France's? I wish Russia would seek greatness without trying to bully other nations.
Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-04-17 22:11:20)
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I had argued to let Crimea go, and used the same argument as Putin. But I cannot support taking a single square centimetre of additional territory. He just stated intent to take Kharkiv, Lugansk, Donetsk, Odessa, and called it "New Russia". I can only hope this is a negotiating ploy. Continuing with that will mean war.
My problem is not the result of Russia getting Crimea, it is the fact that they believe that they can send troops in and take land from other countries when ever they want. If we make it too easy for them, the Russians may be encouraged to try to get more. I think their are multiple ways we could put pressure on the Russians without getting in a direct conflict with them. For instance, we could send troops into Cuba, we could tell Russia that if they want us to stop, then they should stop doing what their doing in Crimea, and if they want to play around in their "near abroad" then we'll play around in ours!
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Again, Cuba is innocent. Don't harm an innocent bystander. But yea, it has become clear that something has to be done. Economic sanctions aren't going to work. I'm not sure what the solution is. And that's very scary.
RT.COM: Putin says oil wars with Russia will make West bleed
http://rt.com/business/russia-west-oil-prices-136/
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I should add a correction. Earlier I had posted that the Canadian Clarity Act requires a province to have 2/3 majority to separate. I found the text of the law. It's more vague.
2. (2) In considering whether there has been a clear expression of a will by a clear majority of the population of a province that the province cease to be part of Canada, the House of Commons shall take into account
(a) the size of the majority of valid votes cast in favour of the secessionist option;
(b) the percentage of eligible voters voting in the referendum; and
(c) any other matters or circumstances it considers to be relevant.
Not trying to make a point about Ukraine with this, just trying to be accurate. So this gives the federal government discression whether to accept the result of a referrendum. Um, not sure what to say about that either.
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