What if we lose #2 - Further thoughts

Bill White · 2004-05-12 12:49:10

How 'bout this. We offer tax breaks as incentive. Start building the vehicles, outfitting gas stations etc, the income tax for the business gets cut in half for ten years.

Ending the oil depletion allowance (tax breaks for oil companies) might also work. Right now the US taxpayer subsidizes gasoline. Ending that taxpayer subsidy would be a good start.

Tax breaks work fine, provided they are big enough and we have enough revenue to run the rest of government.

= = =

Switching to hydrogen will take a long time, long enough that we don't need to delay to allow China to use more oil. No wall around the USA, a wall around the Middle East.

Oil will still be very valuable for making plastics - stuff like that.

= = =

Alaska will give us a few months of oil at most and really, really piss off the Sierra Club. Which do you value more, Cobra? :;):

= = =

That judge idea is a short term solution designed to facilitate cooperation. Slow steps, Ellie, slow steps. . .

Edit: Slow steps as we back away from the precipice of civil war, a bad idea for all of us.

Mundaka · 2004-05-12 12:53:02

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-12 13:09:04

Alaska will give us a few months of oil at most and really, really piss off the Sierra Club. Which do you value more, Cobra?

That's the lowest estimate I've heard yet, but I suppose we don't really know for certain.

Pissing off the Sierra Club, that's an end unto itself.

Bill White · 2004-05-12 13:42:38

Alaska will give us a few months of oil at most and really, really piss off the Sierra Club. Which do you value more, Cobra?
That's the lowest estimate I've heard yet, but I suppose we don't really know for certain.
Pissing off the Sierra Club, that's an end unto itself.

How'd I know that in advance? :;):

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-12 14:28:11

How'd I know that in advance?
Cobra Commander Posted on May 12 2004, 15:09

Yeah, kinda hard to miss that one.

Time to go cut down some trees and puncture the ozone layer.

Palomar · 2004-05-12 15:03:02

... Nick Berg ...
PostEDIT EDIT: Ain't seen the video, have a debate going with myself about whether or not to see it.

*I don't want to see it. I know what happened to this poor man, and that's enough...I won't even allow a visual image in my mind's eye.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/8645573.htm?1c]Nick Berg loved science

Rest in peace.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-12 15:14:06

*I don't want to see it. I know what happened to this poor man, and that's enough...I won't even allow a visual image in my mind's eye.

I know what you mean. Haven't seen it but I've been filled in on the details.

Part of me wants to turn that whole area into an Orion launch facility. Maybe without the launch and facilities parts...

DonPanic · 2004-05-12 15:47:56

LO

Dumping the Bush Administration won't help win the war, it won't win over our enemies, and it won't persuade others to help

Absolutely wrong, 80% of Europeans dislike* Bush and Bush's America. Before Bush's election more than 65% had a pretty good opinion of USA. These 80% wish Bush out and though Kerry doesn't look very sexy, he's supported here just because hesn't Bush.
Kerry might get main Nato nations support to send troops in Irak.

if we stay the course posterity will vindicate us. If we waver or quit, we become the proverbial paper tiger.

If you leave, you loose, if you stay, you will stay as occupiers, not unlike Israeli army in occupied territories, when you pretended to bring to Iraqis freedom and welfare, you loose too

*dislike is an euphemism, not to say hate

Alt2War · 2004-05-12 16:14:50

We are now approacing the point where we cannot replace empty oil fields fast enough to overcome bothe the loss of the source and the ever increasing demand.

Over the decade watch oil prices climb sharply as demand increases and supply plateaus.

In the short term, taking the required effort needed to wing ourselves off cheap oil will be a big disadvantage.

But in the long term if we are the first to be a petrolium free nation, then when the supply levels off and drops while the rest of the world continues it's ever increasing demand, we will be the ones at advantage.

Trebuchet · 2004-05-12 16:20:57

As Kerry would be constrained by various factors to stay in Iraq, I have no doubt that Europe would hate him, too, after a few months. They'd realize nothing has changed as far as US international policy. Kerry speaks out of both sides of his mouth and then does the necessary thing, and at this point there is no realistic option to simply leave Iraq to the wolves.

Frankly, Europe can stay home... your military really isn't up to the task, except for those countries which are already there. I'd add that if the US is irritating and alienating Europe, Europe is doing a banner job of irritating and alienating Americans, as well.

DonPanic · 2004-05-13 01:34:22

LO

As Kerry would be constrained by various factors to stay in Iraq,.......... and at this point there is no realistic option to simply leave Iraq to the wolves.

When you realise You are the wolves to the eyes of the Arabs

Frankly, Europe can stay home... your military really isn't up to the task, except for those countries which are already there.

Their public opinions may press their coming back home
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArt … =news]Brit poll

I'd add that if the US is irritating and alienating Europe, Europe is doing a banner job of irritating and alienating Americans, as well.

I know, not to be conform copies of yours is so evilish

Palomar · 2004-05-13 05:35:18

LO
As Kerry would be constrained by various factors to stay in Iraq,.......... and at this point there is no realistic option to simply leave Iraq to the wolves.
When you realise You are the wolves to the eyes of the Arabs

*Well, at least I -can- give America some credit: We have set up -- overnight -- congressional hearings into the abuse matter AND the soldiers who did the abusing will be court martialed and probably go to prison. There is outrage in every American newspaper regarding the prison abuse.

Also, there were massive public demonstrations *against* going to war in Iraq before the invasion. Europe, the Arab world, etc., seem to like to nurse this idea that *all* Americans are in lockstep agreement. We aren't.

I've stated (as proven in previous posts in this thread) where and when I feel America has been wrong.

But where is Arab outrage when they do something wrong? Oh, I forgot -- Arabs can do *no* wrong. The murder of Mr. Nick Berg, a civilian with no military ties, was barely covered by most Arab media networks; some (Syria) refused to touch the story at all.

Never expect an apology from the Arab world and you'll never be disappointed. They're so holy and right. Sure. :down:

Where was the Arab outrage at Western civilians being targeted by terrorists all throughout the 1970s and 1980s (airplane hijackings)? It's okay when they do it (and what was their gripe against us back then, except maybe the tired old Pals-Israel thing?), I guess. They accuse America of being proud, stubborn, etc. Look who's talking.

America has a much better track record of admitting and owing up to when it has been wrong than the Arabs ever have when they've done wrong.

To some extent the Arabs project *their own* faults, wrongs and short-comings onto us. They need to take a good, long look in the mirror. They've got a lot of nerve, throwing stones at us all the time, as if they're so perfect and wonderful and can do no wrong. *Laugh*

Maybe some of them should read Ayn Rand, especially her thoughts on collectivism, appeasement, and envy.

--Cindy

DonPanic · 2004-05-13 06:53:39

LO
You're right Cindy, I'm not judging USA nor the Arabs, frankly, I don't like Islam religion, and I have admiration for the Congress members which investigate on mistreatments.
French never did so when our army tortured Algerians.
As an honest chess player, I'm just trying to watch people's point of view, and you can't deny that Iraqis feel occupied by foreigners.
If USA had been invaded by Reds, wouldn't US citizens have resisted to occupation by any means ?
Wouldn't Red occupyers have said they were there to bring to US people ligths of socialism and free USA from horrible capitalists ?

Bill White · 2004-05-13 07:09:07

Cindy, the goal of PsyOps is to change the heart and mind of your opponent. Manipulate our emotions for their benefit.

What does al Qaeda fear most? Peace and reconciliation between the majority of Muslims and the West. bin Laden opposes progress.

Their strongest weapon? Photos of western humiliation of Arabs AND the ability to commit horrific atrocities against westerners. al Qaeda desires that we hate them and that they hate us.

= = =

Why don't more Arabs speak out? Recall that scene described in Acopalypse Now.

American doctors visit a village and give immunizations. The next day, the VietCong cut off the arms of every child given the shot.

We return and then WE are angry that they aren't more grateful to us for all we have done for them.

= = =

Abused children will often side with the parent who abused them rather than the weaker parent who failed to protect them.

Our strength is worthless unless we protect the average Iraqi from al Qaeda. No one will speak up for us unless we protect the people of Baghdad. that is why Sadr's revolt was so damaging. Iraqi mayors, police chiefs, translators and others who cooperate with the West get killed or their families get harmed.

If we are "strong" and retaliate to attacks on Americans but do not protect the average Iraqi, we will have NO friends there at all.

And if our soldiers view Iraqis as untermenschen we have ZERO hope of success.

= = =

PS - - Jon Stewart was awesome last night.

"Lets see, today I learned that al Qaeda can out-psychopath the United States. Our atrocities are less severe than their atrocities."

"So lets see, we are NOT as evil as Saddam or bin Laden. Whew! What a relief!"

Bill White · 2004-05-13 07:20:54

By metaphor, we are playing chess and are winning at chess.

They are playing GO and kicking our butts.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-13 07:30:32

Our strength is worthless unless we protect the average Iraqi from al Qaeda. No one will speak up for us unless we protect the people of Baghdad. that is why Sadr's revolt was so damaging. Iraqi mayors, police chiefs, translators and others who cooperate with the West get killed or their families get harmed.
If we are "strong" and retaliate to attacks on Americans but do not protect the average Iraqi, we will have NO friends there at all.

Precisely. We absolutely must not only protect those who cooperate with us but it make it known across the land that such people have that protection.

We need to be less of a nuisance to the average Iraqi while at the same be seen as stronger than the insurgents. If we can protect the citizens and brutally crush uprisings they will come to believe that not only will we win, but that it's a preferable outcome.

Fear without hate.

Bill White · 2004-05-13 07:40:47

Our strength is worthless unless we protect the average Iraqi from al Qaeda. No one will speak up for us unless we protect the people of Baghdad. that is why Sadr's revolt was so damaging. Iraqi mayors, police chiefs, translators and others who cooperate with the West get killed or their families get harmed.
If we are "strong" and retaliate to attacks on Americans but do not protect the average Iraqi, we will have NO friends there at all.
Precisely. We absolutely must not only protect those who cooperate with us but it make it known across the land that such people have that protection.
We need to be less of a nuisance to the average Iraqi while at the same be seen as stronger than the insurgents. If we can protect the citizens and brutally crush uprisings they will come to believe that not only will we win, but that it's a preferable outcome.
Fear without hate.

I told you we agree on philosophy and strategy far more than we disagree.

= = =

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread

Where I blame GWB and Rumsfeld, BIG TIME, is their total failure to foresee the evil, CLEVER, tactics of our enemies.

What is happening today was precisely why Bush-41 declined to remove Saddam 14 years ago.

Bill White · 2004-05-13 07:44:21

Our strength is worthless unless we protect the average Iraqi from al Qaeda. No one will speak up for us unless we protect the people of Baghdad. that is why Sadr's revolt was so damaging. Iraqi mayors, police chiefs, translators and others who cooperate with the West get killed or their families get harmed.
If we are "strong" and retaliate to attacks on Americans but do not protect the average Iraqi, we will have NO friends there at all.
Precisely. We absolutely must not only protect those who cooperate with us but it make it known across the land that such people have that protection.
We need to be less of a nuisance to the average Iraqi while at the same be seen as stronger than the insurgents. If we can protect the citizens and brutally crush uprisings they will come to believe that not only will we win, but that it's a preferable outcome.
Fear without hate.

PS - Unless the full strength of the US military is used to protect the Iraqi busboy (and his sister) who clears tables at a GreenZone mess hall, we will lose in Iraq.

If the US soldier views the Iragi as untermenschen, he will be unable to accomplish the above task.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-13 08:06:33

I told you we agree on philosophy and strategy far more than we disagree.

I never doubted it, too much deviance from my own line of thinking would be mindless blather.

And they call Americans arrogant, the nerve...

Where I blame GWB and Rumsfeld, BIG TIME, is their total failure to foresee the evil, CLEVER, tactics of our enemies.

I agree on the problem, but the blame is too narrowly focused. They screwed the pooch on the planning in large part because we, as a nation and a people, are new to this. Even though actual events are more complex, we've gotten this idea that the military should go in, kick ass and come home.

Occupation is not something we've done recently, we don't know how to do it and we're not comfortable with the idea. Before the war I'd bring this up with people, discussing the need to prepare for a long occupation. Even amongst many supporters of the war it was received as heresy.

We've reached a point where the leadership needs to carefully study previous occupations. The British, the Romans, our own experiencee in Germany and Japan... Even the German occupations. We can learn from all of them, both what to do and what not to.

And then possibly hardest of all, after learning what needs to be done, our nation's leaders need to have the resolve to do it. There will be whining and screaming and some people might have to sacrifice themselves on the political altar, but it's got to be done.

A bit ironic, to bring freedom and "democracy" to Iraq we need leaders willing to do unpopular things and tell us when we're being shortsighted and ignorant.

The catch is, those leaders have to be right.

If the US soldier views the Iragi as untermenschen, he will be unable to accomplish the above task.

One thing we could learn from German mistakes. They would have had a loyal and grateful Ukraine if they'd played it better.

Bill White · 2004-05-13 10:01:17

One thing we could learn from German mistakes. They would have had a loyal and grateful Ukraine if they'd played it better.

What annoys me is that doing this should be soooo easy for us.

After all, didn't our nation start out with these words:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-13 10:32:08

What annoys me is that doing this should be soooo easy for us.
After all, didn't our nation start out with these words:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal

We've gotten a little hazy on most of those old concepts. As much as we followed them to begin with, at any rate...

Palomar · 2004-05-13 10:37:03

One thing we could learn from German mistakes. They would have had a loyal and grateful Ukraine if they'd played it better.
What annoys me is that doing this should be soooo easy for us.
After all, didn't our nation start out with these words:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal

*Yeah, you'd think after our history of slavery, treatment of Native Americans, the race riots of the 20th century, etc., we would have learned something by now.

Is it fair to say that a good portion of the human race treats others like crap? Regardless of much-vaunted ethical statements.

"Treat others the way you want to be treated" predates Christ even (Buddha?). Thousands of years later and that ethic is still waiting to really catch on.

Now I'm seeing reports of "systemic abuse" by U.S. soldiers coming out of Afghanistan. Will keep an eye on that.

DonPanic, thanks for your reply. I think you are, like me, trying to be fair.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-13 10:59:49

*Yeah, you'd think after our history of slavery, treatment of Native Americans, the race riots of the 20th century, etc., we would have learned something by now.

Just playing Devil's advocate here, but one could argue that we have, and that the lesson is that those in the way should be brutally subjugated or destroyed. This has far more historical precedent than a more... 'enlightened' approach.

Now I'm seeing reports of "systemic abuse" by U.S. soldiers coming out of Afghanistan. Will keep an eye on that.

In some (not saying all) of the Afghanistan cases the "abuses" are interrogation techniques applied to confirmed al Quaeda terrorists. We must not allow ourselves to blur the line between genuine abuse and necessary intimidation during interrogation, "systemic" by its nature. A concerted effort is being made to blur those lines.

Bill White · 2004-05-13 11:20:56

Now I'm seeing reports of "systemic abuse" by U.S. soldiers coming out of Afghanistan. Will keep an eye on that.
In some (not saying all) of the Afghanistan cases the "abuses" are interrogation techniques applied to confirmed al Quaeda terrorists. We must not allow ourselves to blur the line between genuine abuse and necessary intimidation during interrogation, "systemic" by its nature. A concerted effort is being made to blur those lines.

(A) I agree with Cobra on the above. A concerted effort to blur is underway; yet

(B) FOX News and the American public are not the jury that matters here.

If we allow even the appearance of impropriety, from the Arab perspective, we have already lost that battle.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-13 11:33:17

If we allow even the appearance of impropriety, from the Arab perspective, we have already lost that battle.

And it all comes down to photographs. That is why I remain so irate at the soldiers who perpetrated the abuses in Iraq, gratuitous humiliation is bad enough, but DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!

Another lesson we could learn from the Germans.

Some "abuse" is needed in order to get information from prisoners, terrorists who have killed Americans and would again without hesitation. Other abuse is totally inexscusable, but in neither case do we need some jackass with a digital camera poppin' off stills that end up all over al Jazeera. That in itself warrants a flogging at least.

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