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kbd512,
You seem to have an emotional need for war. You did serve on an American aircraft Supercarrier. War has resumed in the Middle East, and you still haven't learned. Whenever you have multiple governments, all of whom see themselves as "THE" authority, you have conflict. That conflict often results in war. With multiple governments, each of whom think they're the authority, and armed with weapons of war, that inevitably results in war.
In the Middle East, the UN resolution of 1948 that created Israel, also declared the Gaza strip is Palestine. That isn't Israel and the government of Israel has no authority there. Yet Israeli soldiers have entered Gaza to terrorize. Citizens have had enough. Government of Israel is acting like they did nothing wrong, treating Hamas as a terrorist because they see themselves as the only authority. The government of Israel continues to occupy Palestinian land and refuse to acknowledge right of Palestinians to rule themselves. There have been multiple attempts to resolve this peacefully. US President Clinton tried, resulting in an agreement that Gaza and the West Bank are Palestine. But Israel just ignores the agreement, continues not build settlements in the West Bank, and treat Gaza as occupied. I don't believe in war, but you have to realize Israel has been asking for it for years.
::Edit:: Historically Gaza has been Palestinian since before Mosses. ::End Edit::
Multiple countries, each if which think they are THE authority and each with a military will result in war. Period. It's inevitable.
I'm still amazed that you don't understand using the United States as analogy. Land area of USA is equal to all of Europe. Each state has a great deal of autonomy but not allowed to go to war with eachother. For historical reasons each state has a national guard, but in time of conflict that is under authority of the federal military. You think a national guard could take on the entire US military? I doubt soldiers would obey, and if they did then I have to point to 1861.
If you think armed citizens can take on the government, I have to point out Ruby Ridge and Waco Texas during Clinton's administration.
We want Mars to be a place where people can try different things in peace. Certain Americans keep demanding we make the same mistakes on Mars that have caused the problems were trying to escape. To prevent war, that means Mars will NOT have multiple countries. Will NOT have provinces or states. Will NOT have counties or equivalent. The largest political entity will be a city. That's large enough for any social experiment and anything larger results in megalomania and war. And cities will not be allowed to engage in war, will not be allowed to possess weapons of war.
You mentioned the nature of humans. The nature means we cannot allow multiple groups to think they are the authority and to possess weapons of war to enforce it. Allowing that WILL result in war.
Most of Europe has learned the hard way that war cannot be tolerated. Europe has engaged in war for thousands of years, since before recorded history. After World Wars 1 & 2 they said never again. But still they have problems. When Yugoslavia broke up, they had war. Europe was shocked they had war in their continent. They can't let that start again. Now Ukraine.
With all that you want to bring war to Mars? Start the whole mess again on another planet?
Last edited by RobertDyck (2023-10-10 07:10:52)
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For Calliban re Post #25
Thank you for this thoughtful analysis and calm presentation.
I've been letting your post simmer in on the back burner for a while, and am back with an observation about the current conflict.
You said:
War is a conflict over limited resources. Usually, we don't go to war with other people because we sadistically want to destroy them.
The current conflict in the Middle East does not seem to me about resources, because cooperation could have yielded a rich and abundant life for everyone.
Instead, as nearly as I can tell, the present conflict is driven almost entirely by ideology, and specifically religion. It is reported that one side has been advocating destruction of the other for decades, and possibly millennia. Entire generations of young men have been brought up to spend their lives in destruction of the advertised enemy. The Russians appear to have done something similar. As I understand it, the young men in that country have been false information about Ukraine, in order to inspire them to give their lives in pursuit of the elimination of the people of Ukraine. Russia has no need of the resources of Ukraine. As I understand the situation, the entire episode comes down to a spurned lover. The Ukrainians voted to separate themselves from Russia, and Vladimir Putin did not take kindly to being rebuffed.
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tahanson43206,
All wars are about money/resources and power. All. Wars are not fought for ideology. If someone tells you it's about ideology then they're hiding something. Israel is taking land and buildings in Jerusalem that were Palestinian. And they're building settlements in the West Bank. These are not hard to figure out. But the Gaza strip? Palestinians have to fight, it's their home. But what else?
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For RobertDyck ....
There may be a difference between the motivations of those who are directing the effort, and those who participate in it.
A time honored way to inspire lower ranking fighters is to convince them the "enemy" is evil and that they must waste their lives to eliminate the enemy.
It is possible that third party individuals looking on the scene from afar may misunderstand the motivations in play.
In any case, the present situations of conflict around the world illustrate why the idealistic concept with which this topic opened is impossible to achieve.
That said, I think this topic is needed and that the range of views published here will be of interest to psychologists in future times.
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Antarctica is an abject failure. There are a few science outposts, but no economic development. It has iron ore deposits, gold, copper, coal, oil, others. Robert Zubrin would say these are raw materials, not resources; it takes humans to turn raw materials into resources. However, there has been absolutely no economic development. These raw materials are not economically utilized. This means Antarctica is a failure.
Antarctica is one of the 7 continents of our planet. The fact one continent has been reserved as a park for scientists to play in demonstrates how rich this planet has become. But to do that for an entire planet? Who's going to pay the bills?
Money is abstract, you could look at it in terms of resources. At the 2004 Mars Society convention I pointed out insitu resources are needed to build habitats and life support. I deliberately used words to piss-off an environmental extremist. I think people here understand. But yes, mining hematite concretions is open pit strip mining. And we need nuclear power. Was I too cruel?
But the point here is the need for ownership of land. You can't have some Antarctica treaty and mining. Someone will just establish a mine on the very ore deposit you're trying to harvest. Ownership is necessary for economic development.
Indigenous reservations in this province have land owned communally by the band. This means they can't take out a mortgage because they don't actually own their house. Businesses can't bown their building. The chief can take a resident's house at a whim because the chief is pissed off at him. Several indigenous individuals have complained about their chiefs. One said white people have organized crime, indigenous people have chief and counsel. We don't want to duplicate those mistakes in Mars.
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Re post #29. I do not view this as idealistic. A federal government with a military that enforces the rule that cities are not allowed a military? That's not idealism, it's enforcement.
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One issue raised by kbd512 is the danger of the federal government trying to expand its authority. This happened in the US, and there was a "states rights" conflict. Luckily it was resolved without war. Wikipedia cites a Supreme Court ruling in 1819. Today Canada has a similar problem; the federal government is guilty of overreach in many areas. The Premier of Alberta has ordered police to not enforce federal laws that encroach on ares that are clearly provincial jurisdiction under the constitution. This is an ongoing dispute that will most likely not be resolved until the current federal government is voted out of office.
One feature I proposed for Mars is the corporation that owns the Large Ship will subsidize the federal government. That business can only make money as long as people want to move from Earth to Mars. Ensuring that requires keeping Mars free. Homesteads in the outback will pay no taxes and have almost no regulations: thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steel. In the Corporate Government thread I gave some examples of things currently regulated on Earth that will NOT be federally regulated on Mars. They will be left up to cities/municipalities, and a homestead in the outback will not be subject to any municipality. This is deliberate, part of the system, to ensure the federal government has a vested interest in keeping Mars free.
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For any government to work, the people have to trust each other.
Why in the world would anyone trust your word?
Why in the world would you trust anyone else?
Those who would destroy trust, like Vladimir Putin, have found fertile soil in the United States.
The forces of destruction of social institutions are strong, and they must be defeated at every stage of their appearance.
Something similar seems to have been happening in Israel. The behavior you cited recently is NOT uniformly distributed across the population. However, the impact of that behavior is perceived to apply to the entire population.
Perception is often far stronger than reality, in social interactions.
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I believe Mars can avoid War just as living in outer space and science research at the South Pole has avoided any kind of fight.
Would multi-culturalism work on Mars? I personally do not think so, not the way religions and 'cultures' are working on planet Earth today. On Earth when War does break out it now has standard rules. People have tried to add rules into Warfare, the 'Geneva Conventions' international humanitarian law and extra protocols that establish some kind of standard of rules or international legal standards for humanitarian treatment in war, torture or deliberate targeting of civilians can be classed as a 'War Crime'.
I have seen and heard the current situation as closer to terror and ethnic attacks and more than a normal 'War'. The current terror far different to normal warfare where two soldiers or two tanks or humvees fight it out, it has an extreme racial and religion element the Palestine mohammedan jihad islamics of Gaza were involved they say in something more like a 'pogrom' you would hear of from old stories in the Balkans. They say it was not normal war event but better described as ethnic religious 'terror' with radical religion and racial hatred, a kidnapping and hostage taking of people, extreme cruelty and race-extermination or ethno-butchery organized massacre of a particular ethnic group. There seem to be at least 6 islamic pro-Palestine Gaza linked groups involved and perhaps Iran also and accusations on social media that even criminal gun running involved, they say US guns have been shipped from criminal gun runners in Ukraine or Afghanistan but I'm not sure these claims are verified. There are many groups said to be involved Shiite terrorists, Sunni terrorists, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Lions' Den, Hezbollah and maybe Iran directly or indirectly involved. They say in news attacks were on multiple fronts and not just the Gaza–Israel barrier, Palestinian militants also attacked by air and sea and terrorists opened fire on Israeli boats off the Gaza Strip
It's almost impossible to look at any of these Middle East events without any pre-conception or maybe you can get a new view, maybe a reporter from Fiji, or Greenland or South Korea or some place might offer a different view without bias but it seems peace is almost impossible now. A type of Hindu Nationalist tv station is on the ground Republic TV an Indian English-language news channel by Arnab Goswami and Rajeev Chandrasekhar they report From Police Station Destroyed and also Ground At Gaza Strip As IDF launches Attack On Hamas.
My personal belief is that any type of muslim jihad belief or islamic Sharia idea will never co-Exist with Democracy, islam and 'Western Democracy' can not work together. If you have a lot of islamics the best you could probably hope for is for some Benign Dictator to kind of softly beat them down and force a type of Secularism on them but I'm not sure how long that would work long term. They tried it for a while in Turkey and it failed, they are trying it in France today and French are seeing a more violent unstable life and having less freedoms.
Every region with a rising muslim population Nigeria, Philippines, South Sudan, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Kenya or Lebanon which once took in lots of immigrant refugees including lots of islamics and jihads then you start to see rising islamist bombing jihadi attack problems.
I think this event might be different because it was so cold and murderous and shocking one of the largest loss of civilians since the Arab-Israeli wars, they also compare it to Holocaust events on news articles and tv.
No doubt Israel will respond and it will be with overwhelming might and technological military power, but then images of collateral damage come in, old women, children and old men and once again the sympathy for Israel is gone and what then? the cycle repeats?
Here is the India reporting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nocFS4JKz0
another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyz3AYkY8PE
Gaza is a strange place I know the region is small 10 or 25 miles, 16 to 40 km, it has a history, long links to different people movinga d fighting though the region in different regions and economic potential like Singapore, or Gibraltar but it has been hijacked by a bad terrorist mindset, it has crossings but no true functional economy, some of the groups within Palestine fight with each other, Fatah–Hamas conflict, Hamas vs Arafat, the PLO once Israel following a diplomatic process initiated by the United States, Hamas gone jihad crazy terrorist again, they have elections and they elected Hamas, in 2005, the Israeli parliament had approved its disengagement from Gaza, Legislative elections were held in the Palestinian territories in January 2006, Hamas politcally beat Fatah,
PFLP, The Alternative, an Independent party,Third Way, Other Independents, they have basically elected a terrorist group since 2006 when given the opportunity to engage in politics and got a few strongly worded letters from a EU foreign policy chief that wanted to promote democracy and called out decision to postpone elections.
I suspect even India looking at current events would add its own experience and views into the conflict from its experience with islamics in Kashmir or its Pakistan border problems.
In the current waves of attack there have also been people from all over the world killed and kidnapped in these attacks, Africa Tanzania, Latin America Paraguay, people from Europe Austria killed or taken hostage, Thailand said 18 of its citizens had been killed, Nepal a tiny country said 10 of its citizens had been killed, many from France are dead and kidnapped maybe as hostages or 14 are missing
'Nine US citizens were killed'
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67054825
Do not get involved in Israel crisis, top U.S. general warns Iran
https://www.reuters.com/world/do-not-ge … 023-10-10/
In Australia from one extreme to another, the immigrant population used to be mostly a club of Whites British type, it once had the Immigration Restriction Act 1901, known informally as the White Australia policy, restricted non-European immigration in year 2001 a Norwegian freight ship, the Tampa, picked up 438 people whose vessel was sinking off the coast of Indonesia. Captain Rinnan first tried to slowly turn the boat towards Indonesia, after being threatened with prosecution by the Australian government. However, after a while the mainly Afghan asylum seekers noticed, so, concerned that if the ship continued to sail to Indonesia they might jump overboard or riot and harm the crew, decided to head back towards Christmas Island. The Howard government refused to allow the boat to land, saying it was a matter for Norway and Indonesia to work out between themselves, the Tampa Affrair, after 911 they re-consider islamic immigration, the Christmas Island Detention Centre asylum seekers were directed from there to nearby island nations Papua New Guinea, in 2011 they begin swapping 800 new asylum seekers for 4,000 long-standing assessed refugees in Malaysia over time Australia policy changes it had a culture shift to regions from India, South Africa, the Middle East and other places, new arrivals from Iraq, Pakistan and Iran inceasing.
and the culture today?
Australia’s leaders condemn ‘abhorrent’ scenes after anti-Jewish chants filmed at Sydney rally
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n … ish-chants
Anti-Israel Protestors Shout 'Gas the Jews' Outside Sydney Opera House
https://themessenger.com/news/anti-isra … pera-house
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-10 10:44:03)
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RobertDyck,
I voted for President Trump, the only President in my lifetime who has not started another war- TWICE! I'm going to vote for him again because he seems to be the only person who was put in charge of America during my entire lifetime who was capable of running the show without starting another war. I haven't voted for any other President who actually won an election. What was the result from all the other Presidents who did get elected? More war! Imagine that. Actions speak louder than words, bubba. Someone who has an "emotional need" for war voted for the only President who refrained from starting another war- because I need war so much.
Historically, every piece of land on planet Earth has traded hands a dozen or more times. The land in the Middle East is not an exception to that rule. The people who managed to retain it longer than others did so by being more ruthless than the last lot. I'm still amazed that you don't understand that people will fight over something BECAUSE THEY CAN! It doesn't have to make sense to you or I or anyone else. All government, all authority, is force, period. Whomever can muster more force is typically who is also in charge. Might does not make right, but try telling that to those who are in charge.
The Waco and Ruby Ridge thing is laughable. That's not the people "fightin' tha man". Waco was another religious screwball pretending to be the second coming of Jesus Christ while convincing the parents of his followers to let him rape their daughters. In short, another religious cult which raped and killed their fellow Americans, kinda like Jim Jones. The other was some relatively harmless kook who sold guns to our own government, which our government deemed illegal. Why'd they do that? Your guess is as good as mine. They could've arrested him dozens of times without ever killing anyone. To "show him who was in charge", they murdered his pregnant wife while she was holding a baby- because any challenge to our government's authority, however insignificant or petty, is such an affront to "the authorities", that the only way to deal with it is to kill people. That's a running theme amongst all governments. Governments are filled with petty thin-skinned people who can't take any criticisms of their ideas, because they utterly lack introspection. That is one of the primary reasons why I left government.
Cleetus and Jim Bob hanging out with their deer rifles and bad-mouthing their government, while drunk off their fat rear ends, does not a militia make. If the government thought their power was so absolute, then there would be no need to burn rape victims alive by running a tank through their captor's compound while firing off White Phosphorous grenades. Prior to Waco, that was not generally how our government "rescued children from rapists", whether their captors were religious nutters with guns, or any other kind of nut.
When you point to stupid nonsense like a literal handful of "I'm Jesus Part II" religious nuts or "I hates me some gubbermint" kooks shooting at the local Police, it tells me you don't know bean dip about war. Unless we're talking about the Whoyous and the Notmees tribes in Africa, war isn't one person or a handful of people fighting with another handful of people. If a quarter or more of the people in America decided they were going to march on Washington DC, then short of nuking the place, which would also mean nuking the place that the government previously operated from, our government would cease to exist. That was precisely what happened during the American Revolution. Sure, President Biden can nuke DC. He has that power, assuming he kind find his big red button with a map and tour guide. His office will be vaporized, all the people who previously voted for him will also be vaporized, and the military's largest operations center will be gone, as will all the military personnel who previously worked there, and their families. I'm guessing he'll have so much more support afterwards. Not.
The US military tried to outlast the Taliban in Afghanistan. They couldn't do it. Support for the war was lost back home, and to the surprise of no one who is familiar with the history of that region, the Taliban are still there, and they're still in charge of Afghanistan. Not that you'd know any better, but war is not about who is right. War is about who is left. Who's left in Afghanistan? Not the American military, that's for sure.
We want Mars to be a place where people can try different things in peace. Certain Americans keep demanding we make the same mistakes on Mars that have caused the problems were trying to escape.
You, RobertDyck, want escapism fantasyland silliness. I get it. I really do. There are lots of times when I want to escape from the madness of the people here on Earth. The problems start when some, not even most, of your fellow humans don't imbibe in your fantasy of choice.
Mars will NOT have multiple countries. Will NOT have provinces or states. Will NOT have counties or equivalent.
If the other people living on Mars don't imbibe in your fantasy, where are you escaping to next?
When you live with other people, you have to deal with them. Maybe you have the perfect answer to every problem, but if you do then your next task is to convince others. Your line of argumentation has thus far been that preventing the formation of different countries will prevent war. I'll ask one more time, do you have examples to point to, here on Earth, where that actually worked? If you still can't respond with an actual example, then I'll assume you have none.
You mentioned the nature of humans. The nature means we cannot allow multiple groups to think they are the authority and to possess weapons of war to enforce it. Allowing that WILL result in war.
Let me guess... You intend for this all-powerful central authority to enforce this artificial state of affairs by killing everyone who disagrees. My gosh, that sounds an awful lot like what the Israelis and Palestinians are doing to each other right now. Since President Biden, the moron's favorite moron, is in charge right now, America is once again sticking its nose in something that doesn't concern us.
I would much prefer that America stayed the hell out of foreign countries, but convincing the people in charge, whom I did not vote for, is another matter entirely.
Most of Europe has learned the hard way that war cannot be tolerated.
Statements like this are why I have such a hard time accepting your "final solution". The EU is presently sending tens of billions of dollars of weaponry to Ukraine. Where I'm from, you don't show how much you refuse to tolerate war by arming the people who are actively fighting each other. Actions speak louder than words.
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The idea that a world united under a single government would eliminate war, has a long history. It is a common utopian vision. It was one of the primary goals of the Persian empire in its conquest of the Mesopotamia, the Near East and its attempt to subdue Greece. It was then the goal of the Roman empire, the Napoleonic wars in Europe and communist USSR. Paradoxically, it has always resulted in brutal war, as one great leader after another has attempted to impose it on unwilling people. The idealist is then tempted to say that whilst such death is tragic, the ends justify the means. This is exactly how dictators end up killing millions. They all think they are principled, moral and misunderstood people. But their sort of social engineering requires carving away at human flesh. They end up building a grim distopia, as they apply force to crush disent and force society into the idealistic mould they have created.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #36
Your observation about the long history of war, and the failure of Utopian visions of various kinds, invites an effort on the part of members to try to imagine a social compact that would not have the usual result.
The experience of the World over 70 years since World War II suggests (to me at least) that having the ability to obliterate the enemy has kept the size of wars down, but it most certainly has not eliminated them.
Is there a way to meet most human needs so that the motivation to commit violence against neighbors is reduced?
It appears to me that any attempt to eliminate war which is based upon thousand year old grudges is doomed, because the cultures involved have evolved to incorporate hatred of the neighbor into their being.
In the case of Mars, humanity has a chance to start out without those grudges, but they will inevitably occur if one group is perceived to have done injustice to another, even if an objective observer looking on might not be able to see the insult as all that serious. It is the perception of insult that is the key, it seems to me.
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Calliban,
My proposal is not a forced single nation with values and uniform rules for everyone. I said the federal government will have land allocation, and prevent war. Most authority will be left to cities, so they will effectively be city states. Federal law will prevent murder and theft/robbery, but within cities the local city police will enforce murder and theft.
It's years since I wrote the other thread, so people will have forgotten. I said age of consent varies greatly from one culture to the next, so the federal government will not regulate that. Age of consent is the age when an individual may engage in sex. Here in Canada the age was 14 until it was changed in 2006 to age 16. Jewish tradition holds a bar mitzvah for boys or bat mitzvah for girls at age 13. Spanish culture holds a quinceanera at age 15. Within the United States today it varies from state to state; some states it's 16, some 18. So I said the federal government of Mars will not regulate that. Whether prescription drugs can be purchased without a prescription. Marijuana. Whether alcohol is allowed, and if so what age. In the US, an individual must be 21 years old to purchase alcohol or enter a bar. In Manitoba, the province of Canada where I live, the age is 18. In 1970 the argument was people 18 years old can enlist in the military, in times of war the can be conscripted (drafted) at age 18, of you're old enough to kill someone then you're old enough to drink. Again, I said the federal government on Mars will not regulate that. No driver license required to operate a land vehicle outside city limits. It will be up to cities to decide if a driver license is required, although I expect most or all cities will.
At one discussion at the convention this year, one individual said that I want to be the UN on Mars. You could think of it that way.
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For RobertDyck re proposal for a planned culture on Mars ....
You are the only person on Earth (that I know of) who thinks you are promoting a good idea.
You would need to persuade others of the merit of your plan. In fact, you'd have to persuade ** every person on Mars ** it is a good idea.
Can you persuade at least ** one ** other person on Earth, that this is a good idea?
If not, then how can you persuade anyone heading to Mars?
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My girlfriend thinks it's a great idea. At the Convention, Thursday afternoon 5:30-6:00pm, was "Stephen Houghton - Methods for Choosing Government Officials in the Mars Context". He held questions after his talk. I asked about a federal government for Mars. That's where someone suggested this would be UN for Mars. The speaker liked my idea as did several people in the audience. The only push-back I'm getting is here.
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For RobertDyck ...
Glad to hear you got some positive feedback.
You were in a social setting.
You of all people should know that people behave differently when they are in the physical presence of another person, than when they are typing on a keyboard in the comfort and security of their home or other secure location.
Naturally everyone in your physical presence is going to agree with everything you say.
Only the libertarian appears to be able to tell you something other than what you want to hear, and that person is not likely to continue forward in your circle.
What did you learn from Stephen Houghton's talk?
Did it have any connection to your idea of electing representatives from each community to serve in a planetary governing body?
How can you be confident the people you elect will hold to your ideas? Why couldn't they simple recognize themselves as a dictatorship?
That has happened countless times on Earth.
Why not Mars?
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It wouldn't happen under king Me the first. Seriously, Stephen Houghton went over different government styles: dictatorship, monarchy, representative democracy, direct democracy, etc. He was American so openly biased in favour of the American system. How to prevent corruption, from becoming an overbearing dictatorship? I don't know. I have some ideas but considering Canada is currently ignoring/violating much of the constitution, I have to question whether established rules have any meaning. Trudeau keeps saying Canada is a nation of laws, then violates the supreme law, our constitution.
Armed rebellion isn't the answer. The American Civil War demonstrated how that goes.
Last edited by RobertDyck (2023-10-13 18:09:16)
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This is why...
Peter Zeihan, 5 hours ago, October 13.
YouTube: Israel, Hamas and Gaza: Q&A w/ Peter Zeihan
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I sent a direct message yesterday to a local friend.
Hey Myles. I would like your opinion. Within the Mars Society, I proposed a government for Mars. I want to prevent war so my idea is a federal government. It would have jurisdiction over the entire planet Mars. Federal government would allocate land, and prevent war. Only the federal government will have a military or allowed to possess weapons of war. Only 2 levels of government: federal and city. No provinces, states, counties, or rural municipalities. Cities will have police but no weapons of war. Homesteads in the outback will not be under jurisdiction of any city, just federal. Most government authority will be city so they will effectively be city-states. Homesteads in the outback could possess the same weapons as city police. Whether weapons are permitted inside a city would be up to the city.
I ask because some Americans object
He replied today
I have a few ideas in several chunks.
First is: Americans can object but heavy military equipment not necessary for common people for self defense every where else.
Homesteaders can defend their lands quite adequately with standard "hunting" rifles of whatever description. (From each other= the implication as Mars doesn't have Grizzly bears.)
The city-state idea is good because without oceans, there's less defined regions on Mars than Earth so countries not necessary. The city-state is perfect because we would all be colonists around hubs ie no Indigenous people from centuries back. And police powers and police weapons to police people in an area makes sense. If Homesteader goes crazy and wants to raid/attack a city, the city-state can adequately repel.
The federal/global level makes sense.... with some nuance. Who are they defending from?
Would the Feds police the Homesteaders? Military seems overkill but I assume only involved if absolutely necessary. Mediate disputes not solvable locally.
One question - is city-state boundary fixed or 'within 2 miles of sign' or something? Because if I live 200 feet across the Perimeter, I'm not under Winnipeg but I get a lot of benefit and no obligations
Feds arming to prevent??? City-state on city-state violence? Homestead rebellion? Invasion from Earth?
In the absence of countries, need for defense is minor. Lot of bored soldiers.
It puts a lot of power in Feds but needs to be. I think just threat of feds keep people pleasant.
Question of do feds control shipments to/from Earth, regulate things, etc
I guess its always the question of which and how much power.
My reply
Worried of Earth countries not accepting Mars independence. And city states fighting over resources. If the federal government can't enforce their laws, people will ignore it. Most people are good but the very few bad ones become leaders of Hamas etc.
Last edited by RobertDyck (2023-10-16 14:21:57)
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Myles responded again. For your information, I know Myles through a science fiction club, he isn't part of the local chapter of the Mars Society.
I was thinking 'small arms' is best term for non-feds, while 'heavy weapons' is best for Feds.
'Small arms fire' in military literally means bullets and not-huge ones, while 'heavy weapons or munitions ' implies war or siege capability.
Small arms keeps the burglar out but not good against armored vehicles or buildings.
Armor and RPGs and mortar/artillery and 'machine guns (vehicle mounted usually)' are heavy munitions and are for armies. If Johnny has a small armory, he's not just defending, he's 'prepping' for something.
This is why its 'odd' with military vehicles being used by SWAT because unless you need to ram down a door, armor is overkill in a city-state. Big waste of $. 'But what if we get shot at?' Stay behind any vehicle or portable shield.
Police level small arms are usually all any city needs.
It's only if someone sells a tank or rpg to a gangster that you need a tank buster or heavy shield. (US issue is they allow heavy sales to individuals or 'close enough to allowed' so bad guys get heavy stuff. There was US company made small gatling guns and caught selling to Mexican gangs.... and no one went to jail ?)
Last edited by RobertDyck (2023-10-16 14:22:30)
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There is a new translation of the "Iliad" on the market.
Google snippets:
I've removed a lot of the duplication.
About 6,510,000 results (0.59 seconds)
The Iliad: A New Translation by Caroline Alexander
Amazon.comhttps://www.amazon.com › Iliad-New-Translation-Car...
Carved close to the original Greek, acclaimed classicist Caroline Alexander's new translation is swift and lean, with the driving cadence of its source—a ...
Rating: 4.6 · 958 reviews · $17.99 · $5.99 delivery · 30-day returns · In stockThe new 'Iliad' translation is a genuine page-turner
Washington Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com › books › 2023/09/21Sep 21, 2023 — But together they aptly describe Emily Wilson, whose new translation of Homer's epic poem “The Iliad” is one of the most eagerly anticipated ...
Essay: How Different Translators Bring New Life to the 'Iliad'
The New York Timeshttps://www.nytimes.com › Books › Book Review
Jun 28, 2023 — Over the years, some 100 people have translated the entire “Iliad” into English. The latest of them, Emily Wilson, explains what different ...
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FeedbackThe Iliad — Emily Wilson
Emily Wilson
https://www.emilyrcwilson.com › the-iliad-sept-2023
Reviews and Observations: The Guardian “The Iliad by Homer, translated by Emily Wilson review – a bravura feat” (September 27, 2023) by Edith Hall.The Iliad | Homer, Emily Wilson
W.W. Norton
https://wwnorton.com › booksWhen Emily Wilson's translation of The Odyssey appeared in 2017—revealing the ancient poem in a contemporary idiom that was “fresh, unpretentious and lean” ( ...
$39.95Emily Wilson's New Translation of 'The Iliad' Brings Ancient ...
Mental Floss
https://www.mentalfloss.com › BOOKS
8 days ago — Greek mythology fans and history buffs can go back to where it all started with Emily Wilson's brand-new translation of Homer's 'The Iliad,' ...The Iliad by Homer, translated by Emily Wilson review
The Guardianhttps://www.theguardian.com › books › sep › the-iliad...
Sep 27, 2023 — Six years on from her translation of the Odyssey, Wilson revels in the clarity and emotional clout of Homer's battlefield epic.Book Review: The 'Iliad,' by Homer, Translated by Emily ...
The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com › Books › Book ReviewSep 25, 2023 — Emily Wilson's sparkling translation of Homer's “Odyssey” was published to huge acclaim in 2017; she has been working “intensively” on her ...
The Iliad: A New Translation by Peter Green
$14.69
Amazon.com, 10+ storesThe Iliad: A New Translation by Caroline Alexander
$17.99The Iliad: (The Stephen Mitchell Translation)
$13.99$16
The Iliad: The Fitzgerald Translation [Book].The Iliad: A New Translation by Caroline Alexander
Barnes & Noble
https://www.barnesandnoble.com › BooksWith her virtuoso translation, classicist and bestselling author Caroline Alexander brings to life Homer's timeless epic of the Trojan.
$19.99 · $5.99 3–7 day delivery · 30-day returns · In stockWhat Emily Wilson's 'Iliad' Misses
The Atlantichttps://www.theatlantic.com › archive › 2023/11 › emi...
Oct 2, 2023 — Emily Wilson's translation of The Iliad is an Iliad for the masses, written in English verse legible to people who do not normally read verse.The Iliad of Homer by Homer
The Iliad: A New Prose Translation [Paperback]
The Iliad (Royal Collector's Edition) (Case Laminate Hardcover with Jacket)With her virtuoso translation, classicist and bestselling author Caroline Alexander brings to life Homer’s timeless epic of the Trojan War Composed around 730 B.C., Homer’s Iliad recounts the events of a ... Google Books
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And how does the Iliad relate to this discussion?
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RobertDyck
A summary of his video would be helpful because I don't think I will watch it. This Zeihan can post some interesting data but at other times he has to be one of the worst 'experts' out there. He seems to also confuse terms like mix up a time Bretton Woods ended when the US pulled out of the gold system and he confuses this time period of Bretton Woods with the 'Anglo-American-Empire' if you want to call it that or when Zeihan is referring to 'Bretton Woods' instead he should be describing the more modern and current Pax Americana period. We all have our opinions, it sets us apart from people who repeat propaganda slogans from others, it sets us apart from 'Drones' you see working in the bee colony, sometimes an individual human the ordinary person can be far more insightful than some well respected and promoted geopolitical thinker. He worked for thinking groups linked to Susan Eisenhower, Virginia Kirkus publications and The Washington Post from Washington DC promotes him. That guy who smokes weed and drinks during his podcasts 'Joe Rogan' also promotes Zeihan, he is not terrible he does have data but something feels off. I try to avoid propagandists and would rather hear your opinion and not go through posts of some 'Stratfor' propaganda video from Peter Zeihan
The last time I watched or read anything from him he was blabbing nonsense about the Italian leader Meloni saying she's the next Hitler, he more or less says she is the next 'Neo Fascist' and 'Proto-Fascist' and about to throw homosexuals and Jews in gas chambers or some other political nonsense. The global nutty propaganda types want to continue an Open Border pro-islamist-jihadi policy, they sell feel good propaganda at times they are blind to reality. There is a lot of hatred out there, a lot of victims of drug and human trafficking at the border. Does he only want Open Borders for the USA or Canada, no Open Borders for Saudi or Israelis? and while a war rages in the East why not flood your own nation with outside forces of strange USSR Bolsevik sabotage and islamics?
And how does the Iliad relate to this discussion?
You should read it or watch a video on its meaning perhaps. Empires come and go maybe as Greece went away so will some of today's powerful States and Nations. The old writing of this time is one of two major ancient Greek epic poems one of the oldest works of literature, a description of civilizations just as you have recordings of Egypt, China and Rome, the poem is about the coalition of Greek states, the poem depicts significant events in the siege's final weeks. Some of the events might have been real historical happenings or also part myth, pagan religious custom and folklore, formed as part of a long oral tradition. In the old days the Greeks had 'Seers' people who had visions and precognition what kingdom would grow, what Empire would attack next, Mystery Of The Delphi Oracle Prophecies, Others would say they were weirdo addicts or Charlatan the 'Witch' Practicing the political quackery of their time, they might have been well-read but also inhaled some vapors inside a cave maybe with weird spices or were intoxicated on some weird type of wine with mushroom, Pythia the name of the high priestess of the Temple of Apollo, the Oracles of old have now been replaced by author on geopolitics, some of their educated estimates of the world are so outrageous you might wonder if they are also on highs or stimulants, perhaps a modern legal mind altering prescription medication would make someone believe that woman in Italian politics will grab Homosexuals and Jews and start killing them because of some silly Euro election result.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-20 05:14:22)
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Egypt and US agree to allow aid into Gaza
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-mid … t-67141589
PM speaks with Mahmoud Abbas, reiterates support for Palestinian statehood
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ … 439328.ece
PM Modi expresses condolences to Palestinian President Abbas; India supports two-state solution and humanitarian assistance
A once Western leaning French Lebanon culture has also been hit hard by conflicts over time, the title ‘Switzerland of the East’, and for Beirut ‘ Paris of the Middle East’, the culture changes in North Africa also. In France the rightwing Marie Le Pen her father was anti-Jewish but she married an Algerian Jewish heritage man, Lebanon had 'Carlos Ghosn' a guy who was top of a motocar company but then fled Japan, Éric Besson who worked at Renault was in the French AirForce, became a socialist for a while, he joined Nicolas Sarkozy popular union for a time and ran immigration. The French started to win some wars in the 1920s, the Franco-Syrian War resulted in Arab defeat and capitulation of the Hashemites, French Lebanon a state declared which became the Lebanese Republic, hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees live in Lebanon with about half in refugee camps, these people have already been trouble and violent, will they take anymore? let too many in and you get a new Civil War, a 'Free Lebanon State', Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon, a Republic of Lebanon, a decades long Syrian occupation of Lebanon, many political religious 'Assassinations'. In places like Germany and Australia, foreign culture and an alien outside religion now becomes part of politics, some media feeds showing islamic protests on Australia streets saying 'Gas the Jews'. In the USA some crazy nutty types from College and University seem to be around political flags of the groups who killed Americans, the insanity of protests for the side who kidnap US citizens holding them hostage. Cheering for the attack holding someone hostage, has politics ever been so crazy?
The Middle East is its own unique type of blood and crazy, the region has been a blood contest of different Empires and Religions and Ethnic groups and Kingdoms, perhaps against the odds a series of tribes of Jewish somehow after World War 2, the fall of the Turks, the break up of the Ottoman Empire and soon after a British mandate of Palestine into two states – one Jewish, one Arab, the Jewish return to the region to once again claim a Jewish Israeli State. There was sympathy for Jewish people after WW2, against odds and out numbered there was Israeli victory at its start, Israel and fighting off a coalition of Arab states, the United Nations (UN) established political supervising and monitoring of regions. Following victory in the early wars, Israel experienced a wave of national euphoria, an expanding of Zionism politics, more history before this Six Day War, the Palestinian insurgency, Suez Crisis and more conflicts after the War, Yom Kippur War. However the Arab–Israeli conflict did not end and has been long, perhaps Israel had a degree of arrogance it would not have its 911 or some thought its military would do better than the USA in Afghanistan or Iraq, then came a 2006 Lebanon War, the result was mostly 'Inconclusive' but there were large Casualties and losses of Jewish Israelis on the ground, perhaps terrorists with knowledge of making IED bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq passed on their methods, some islamics called it a victory, some military people in Israel admitted it would be counted as a loss while other political people considered the war a failure and a missed opportunity.
From the USA a song 'To the Shores of Tripoli' Marine's Hymn 'From The Halls Of Montezuma' a story telling the account of U.S. Marines in this battle and subsequent occupation of Mexico City but another line describes a fight against the Islamist Jihadi Empire. In another series of discussions in newmars threads we wondered what the Founding Fathers would have thought of radicals who followed the words of Mohammed from the Quran or Koran, maybe the men from this time might have thought islamist jihadis followed 'Satan' or devil worshiping mad man and child abuser, maybe they would have thought muslim bandits and pirates follow the 'Anti-Christ'. The ships and vehicles of this time are described with words of Affection or fondness, we still use old masculine and feminine terms for vessels from this time. The Ships at the time would spend days to travel by sail, USS Nautilus was captured by the British Navy in 1812, at the time of her capture she mounted 16 guns, had crew of 106 men, the Admiralty sold 'her' in 1817. Men of this time had a different understanding of the world, politics and Empires and the sciences. Plus if a man from old times would travel to the future in a time machine then what would they men of this Founding Father time have thought of an Atheist of our modern world, an Antifa Rioter, a Leftwing radical or Rightwing radical, what would they have thought of immigration of Buddhist or Hindu? What would Founding Fathers thought of the Jews, they knew the story of Moses would Jews be also blamed for ordering Rome to crucify a new influential man of miracles in the region called 'Jesus'. At this time when the USA was founded there was no Jewish Israeli State, as the idea of a United States of America was born it was already dragged into European Middle East North Africa 'Wars' the Barbary Wars against islamist jihadi Pirates were a series of wars fought by the United States and allies against the Barbary states of North Africa, I believe men of this time would still be shocked by 'barbarism' of islamics but they might also be shocked at how fast political events of a future Earth moves, flying machine crossing oceans in hours and sea shipping range anywhere from 20-50 days. The men of this time probably knew communication would get faster and faster, the Chappe telegraph, an optical telegraph in the late 18th century during the Napoleonic era, there was an understanding of electricity and later the electric telegraph started to replace the optical telegraph in the mid-19th century. Today news of terrorist attacks and bombs and victims comes to use in an instant, blasted across feeds in social media.
the cycle continues, Israel will use its military might to hunt and bomb and shoot terrorists. Old women, old men and children are caught in the damage, pictures of victims and more future terrorists recruited.
and so little help
in the region you have somewhat powerful and influential Arab States, the Sunni influence, Iranian Shiite and some very rich Arab Kingdoms
none of them want the Arab Palestine Gaza types to arrive as refugees, they all close their borders.
Some time back Lebanon was Christian and French culture, Arabs and Jews in the region know the story of how they allowed in so many refugees and within the arrivals of refugees were many islamists and jihadist type. What follows is Lebanese Civil War a multifaceted armed conflict that destroyed the country for decades and sent millions from Lebanon overseas into self-exile abandoning their own country. For a while after 911 a Lebanese-American conservative author and anti-Islamism activist would appear in news articles and on tv.
I was born and raised in Lebanon, which used to be the ONLY Christian majority nation in the Middle East.
'My 9/11 happened in 1975 when my home was bombed, burying me under the rubble.'
https://twitter.com/ACTBrigitte/status/ … 5238124849
'This is my story of survival.'
Martian areas might have their own borders
Sometimes mixes of people can work together sometimes not
maybe a mix of multiple different opposed cultures and religions of conflict would be a mistake for Mars colonies.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-20 05:34:24)
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Outsourcing the clothes, Malayalam Hindu Malayalam Brahmic scripts coconut-lined sandy beaches, backwaters, hill stations, Maryan Apparel of India making uniforms, it was making uniforms for Israel ’s police and prison officials .
'A Moral Decision': Kerala Firm Stops Uniform Sales to Israeli Police Over Hamas War
https://www.news18.com/world/kerala-fir … 26504.html
Canadian Indian 2023 diplomatic crisis, some say the radical Sikh separatist was a group ready to attack Hindus, Trudeau brought up the accusations of Modi Indian government involvement in the killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar. Election influence? other players Pierre Poilievre the Conservative group and Bloc Québécois the Quebec nationalism and Quebec sovereigntist group and another party Jagmeet Singh 'New Democratic' of Social Leftist socialism, a party lead by the practicing Sikh of Punjabi descent, Singh is an Indo-Canadian.
Canada withdraws 41 diplomats from India and cuts some consular services
https://www.aol.com/canada-withdraws-41 … 28297.html
War and Yemen, a food insecurity crisis has been ongoing hitting civilians in Yemen
https://www.scmp.com/yp/report/latest-r … famine-and
Main suspect in 2021 assassination of Haitian President Jovenel Moïse gets arrested
https://www.foxnews.com/world/main-susp … e-arrested
Child killed, 8 injured in hand grenade explosion in Pakistan's restive Balochistan
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor … 496787.cms
After taking Nagorno-Karabakh, Azerbaijan is now eyeing a strategic strip of Armenia
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl … 30504.html
Desperate Putin may soon rely on mercenaries 'recruited by the church'
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/18 … t-soldiers
Belarus’s Lukashenko proposes ‘three-way cooperation’ with Putin and Kim Jong-un – as it happened
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ … her-rifles
Tigray atrocities continuing almost a year after ceasefire, UN experts warn
https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve … perts-warn
“The conflict in Tigray, still not resolved in any comprehensive peace, continues to produce misery,” the report said.
Is Ethiopia on the brink of a new war?
https://www.dw.com/en/ethiopia-war-has- … a-66943103
Barely a year after the Tigray War ended with a peace agreement, militia fighting is now raging in the Amhara region. Experts warn that this could lead to a new war
Foreign Mercs and islamist expansion
Inside the hidden war between Russia and France as they jostle for control in Africa
The Sahel a spread of conflict, Burkina Faso, Mali and Niger, the French retreating
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/18 … gner-Group
France to start withdrawal of troops from Niger this week
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nige … -38hkfd7tg
Retired Gen. Frank McKenzie says ISIS is a more "enduring" threat than al Qaeda
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/retired-g … -al-qaeda/
crossing point between Egypt and the Gaza Strip
Israel-Hamas war: Protesters demand opening of the Rafah Border Crossing as aid trucks wait to get into Gaza
https://news.sky.com/video/israel-hamas … a-12988432
Biden’s hope for alternatives fade as Israel appears to signal Gaza invasion
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ … -joe-biden
Israel reveals plans for 'three-phase war' in Gaza, starting with airstrikes and ground manoeuvres
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … Strip.html
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-20 11:27:47)
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