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#1 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-05-04 21:35:48

Tom Kalbfus, you make several assertions that aren't true and they are:

For every government job that is created, more jobs are lost to the private sector, because the money that is required to create those private jobs is taken by government to create government jobs.

FDR's Four river project is an example where your assertions fall apart. That Four river project and other such project by the US Government was the foundation for restarting the US Economy during the Great Depression which was caused by the private sector. The money to build those four river projects, didn't come from taxes either, because, over half the people or more were unemployed at the time that FDR proposed those projects. The money came from the Treasure Department by FDR giving the power to generate credit to the Treasury Department. The Treasury Department created the credit in the amount that was need to finance those four river projects and they were paid back to the US Government over the proceeding thirty years after those projects were finished. Not only did those four river projects not take jobs away from the private sector, they actually created jobs for the private sector by having those private companies bid on those government contracts to build them. Not only that, many of those companies actually even congregated around those government projects like they do around those government built roads. Companies like steel and Aluminum manufactures did, because they need both water and power which they could get both at a fairly reasonable price, but had to deal with the market forces in other places.

A government is a monopoly, it does not face compeditive pressures, as a consequence there is more job security for those employed by the government than by private industry, but the money that is required to hire those government employees comes from the pockets of private industry through taxation. What government can't do very well, because of its ineffeciency, is create economic growth directly. Government can foster growth by taxing minimally, but the more it taxes, the less the economy grows.

Agreed, the government is a monopoly if you want to put it that way. But, private companies have there own short falls too, they are bound to pay there stock holders which also add to the price of the product, after all the stock holder has to have his return on his investment. Then you have companies like Enron that were energy pirates in the California price gouging several years ago.

I feel that government has an important role, it enforces the law and provides uniform standards for industry so that companies can compete efficiently with each other in producing product and services, but the government itself is not very good at producing product and services, it should only do so, where there are no alternatives to it. It makes little sense for instance, for government mining companies to mine coal or to drill for oil, although the people working for such companies, probably enjoy job security and benefits, the rest of society pays in taxes and subsidies, the price for those securely held jobs and benefits for a few workers, and in return receives less in goods and services that it would otherwise receive from an equivalent compeditive private company.

For the most part, I agree with you here. There are places where it make sense to have the private sector do it and only have government super vision over it.


Governments should foster growth by staying out of the way, and by taxing only that what is necessary, and by providing services only where necessary, where it can't be obtained in the private market.

I think we need to take it on a case by case bases. If there selling roses, we don't need government super vision. But, other places, that may not be so.

Also where government does provide services, such as education, it should pay for that service directly where ever possible instead of providing the service itself.

To give an example:
pay for an education so that the parents can afford to send their children to a school of their choice, rather than have the government run a school.

Another example is to pay for medical coverage rather than run a hospital itself.

Government should get its work done by employing the fewest number of government workers necessary to accomplish the task, and where there are opportunities to get private companies to provide the service, they should.

I have not problem with the Federal, State, county or city owning some of the infrastructure like subways, dams, Electric Power Companies,  city air ports, Amtrak, US Post Offices, Hospitals, etc. I also have no problem with there being private ownership of some of the infrastructure too, like hospitals, the air lines, the truck lines, factories, mines for the ores, etc.

So I have not set number as to how many employees that the government  should have for employment. But, I don't want a run away government that is trying to employ everyone either.

Larry,

#2 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-27 19:10:39

The other elephant in the room here is the fact that cost so much to merely exist. Various forms of insurance/extortion, a court system that allows an absurd level of idiotic litigation, and a fundamental failure of the education system I mentioned make us so dependent on other to exist, and in completely non-productive fields. We pay for things we don't need just to keep others employed.

Frivolous lawsuits is one thing.

But, what does that have to do with whether we build subways or super trains system or nuclear power plants?

We need those things!

So let build them.

Larry,

They significantly increase the cost of health care and workers comp insurance, both huge issues on major construction sites.

I am for good quality health care for everyone and not just for everyone in the United States either. Good quality health care should be considered part of doing business. If those business aren't going to have health care for there workers, then they don't need to be in business at all. If business aren't going to be taking care of there employees and will take unfair advantage of them, then I don't want them in business. I think it should be a right and not a privilege to have a good health policy or program for everyone in the United States and not just for those on a large construction site with those large contracts. If they were getting either no health care or sub-standard health before they got that job at that large construction sight, then I should hope that there health care should be better and if it cost more, then OK. Now where there are abuses and there is even fraud going on with the people that are using the health care or the ones providing that health care to the people, then Yes something should be done about it. I also consider a good health care program should also include having clear water, good quality food that not been contaminated, clear air, etc. I consider what you call a health care plan to be only apart of a bigger package of a prober diet, clean water, clean air, etc

What I consider to be part of a bigger health care plan were to be done, then the part that you consider to be a health care plan should go down in price, because fewer people will be getting sick and won't need Health care.

Larry,

#3 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-24 19:37:07

The other elephant in the room here is the fact that cost so much to merely exist. Various forms of insurance/extortion, a court system that allows an absurd level of idiotic litigation, and a fundamental failure of the education system I mentioned make us so dependent on other to exist, and in completely non-productive fields. We pay for things we don't need just to keep others employed.

Frivolous lawsuits is one thing.

But, what does that have to do with whether we build subways or super trains system or nuclear power plants?

We need those things!

So let build them.

Larry,

#4 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-22 19:54:01

Since we are talking about politics and all, I think it is vital that society provides work for all people capable of work.

I don't think this means creating useless jobs. In the UK for instance many beautiful old churches are closed for 90% of daylight hours because the church cannot afford to provide security and they would otherwise be vandalised. Now if unemployed people were given a phone and required to provide security in Churches these wonderful buildings would be open to the public - providing a fantastic new cultural resource and probably stimulating tourism in many areas.

That's just one example. There are plenty of other ways we could employ people productively. This is much better than just paying them benefit or letting them starve. They can be paid pro rata for their benefit. If the minimum wage is £5 per hour and the person is receiving £100 a week in benefits they could be required to work for 20 hours.

It would not be a very expensive scheme (although there would be some administrative costs) and would have many benefits. Not least unemployed people would feel useful and would have something for their CV. There would be promotion opportunities within the scheme.

lous, you have come a long way in understanding that we can't just let people starve to death and we don't want useless jobs for them either or make work jobs. I have stated many times what the US Government should to create jobs and there not make work jobs either. We really need the infrastructure that I say that we should build and we are going to use that infrastructure after it been built for thirty or forty years afterward too. But, what you are talking about doing is just make work jobs at minimum wages. We need good paying jobs that someone can raise a family on with health care included in the package, with retirement and a two week vacation. If we aren't taking along those lines for those people that need jobs, then we just playing games with them and there lives.

Larry,

#5 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-20 19:50:29

When I say that your locked into a mindset and you won't let it go, I am not attacking you. I am making a statement of fact about you. If you or anyone has any doubt about may claim that your locked into a mindset and will refuse to reason with other people over these ideas.

That's about as ad hom as it gets Larry. I'm surprised you bothered to reply considering how locked into this "mindset" I am and my refusal to reason with you and others. Further discussion is obviously a waste of time.

I suppose so.

When someone make cut and dried choices that they can't support and then makes a blanket statement to support that cut and dried choice they made and then won't come off there position when someone else gives them several examples that interdict's the choice they made, then there is no point in going on with the discussion.

You never really answered my objection to you saying the government never produces any wealth, it only consumes. You basically punted of passed most of it and only picked what you thought you could kind get by with your concept that the government never produces any wealth at any time, case close.

So you have not really answered my challenge to you claim that the government never produces any wealth.

With that, it time to break off this discussion.

Have a Good Day!

Larry,

#6 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-19 21:27:09

cIclops, your locked into a mindset of repeating propaganda with absolutely no bases in fact. You see what you want to see and you don't see what you don't want to see. I do not denie that the Government consumes a certain amount of wealth, but you can't support your claim that the Government doesn't create a certain amount of wealth either and doesn't provide goods and services the American people.

Is it too much to ask that we discuss our views and not make this so personal?

Your examples are all government agencies, pseudo businesses that AFAIK are funded and subsidized by taxpayer money. They mostly operate without competition. Once big government moves into an area they squeeze out private enterprise. There's no reason today why government should be delivering mail or providing any other basic service, with a few exceptions like police, justice and the military - and to get back on topic, space exploration. If government agencies are so good at this, why not have them run restaurants and shops too? The answer is they are hopelessly inefficient, any time they screw up more money is just poured in to cover their losses. Money that they forcibly extract from the true wealth creators and ordinary citizens. The net result is a less prosperous society and a less efficient economy - and millions of people dependent on   taxpayer supported jobs. Look how NASA has to take into account all those jobs at KSC when it makes decisions about new launch systems.

I am not like you. I am not locked into any one mindset.

Where it make sense for the government to own the infrastructure and to manage it, then I have not problem with them owning it and running it. Things like the City Water System or Amtrak.

Where it make sense for big industries to exist and do business, I have no problem with that either. Things like car and air plane manufacturing come to mind, but I would like them regulated to prevent abuses that large corporation will do sometimes.

Where it make sense for private individual to do business and have neither the large corporation or the government doing it, then I support that way of doing it. The family farmer comes to mind in that category of business, but, those family farmers have to be protected, from price fixing by those billion dollars corporations and by the price fixing of there loans by those billion dollars banks that act like loan sharks.

Where it make sense for both the private sector and the government to get involved in it like the health care business. We have private hospitals and we have public hospitals, we also have those military hospitals. We have private insurance companies, Medicaid, Medicare and non profit companies for health care insurance. To have good quality health care, we need all of it, so I accept the fact that we need all of it to have a good quality health care system.

I am not locked into any one way of thing like you are. When it make sense to do it some other way, thin I will do it some other way and not keep saying the same old stuff that doesn't work.

When I say that your locked into a mindset and you won't let it go, I am not attacking you. I am making a statement of fact about you. If you or anyone has any doubt about may claim that your locked into a mindset and will refuse to reason with other people over these ideas. Then they should look over the last several post, where I have given you several example that refute you idea that the government only consumes and doesn't produce anything at all productive. I can also show you business that also consume wealth and don't produce anything either. Bear Stearns is just such a business and there are other business that do the same thing that Bear Stearns does, which is to engage in non productive business of business that is detrimental to the economical health of the United States. I don't accuse all business of being this type of business, but you accuse all government on all levels of being non productive on every front and that is just not so.

Larry,

#7 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-19 20:47:06

For Space Exploration, it's kind of going to the Private Enterprises. NASA doesn't develop any new tech, it just pays companies to.

It may pay companies for the technologies, but what incentive do those companies have for applying those technologies together for exploration?

NASA has always contracted out to private US Companies to develop new technologies that they need to developed so they can complete the mission that they were given to do. They need some new engine or new type of metal or micro switches, etc, for some new project there doing  and NASA doesn't build it themselves, so they contract it out to the lowest bidder to develop it for for them. When those companies develop the new technology to have developed to build what NASA wanted built, then NASA buy that new product that the company developed for NASA. Now that company has a new product line, compliments of the US Tax Payer through the NASA contract to buy a particular product that didn't exist before it was developed. But, since NASA was the one that paid for the development of that new technology at some point in time that is also opened up to the rest of the US Business to use too. But, that company has first crack at using that technology first since they developed it. So a short time period is given them to redeem that technology first before other companies get a crack at using that new technology. Here where it get interesting when it opened up to all the other companies in America, because there all doing something else and they can all use that new technology for something different to serve another application.

The medical field will use those micro circuit to make wheel Chair that can be powered or managed by the people who are in the wheel chairs.

It is these other application like this that I keep referring to as the bases for creating that fourteen to one dollar return on our investment of going to the moon, which it where those micro circuit were developed. It both expands the US Economy and it also improves the life of the people that use that new technology. People who are in wheel chair, it gives them new mobility that they didn't have before and the list goes on.

Larry,

#8 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-18 20:52:27

Beside the power and the authority of the United States to lobby taxes on the people, they also have the power to generate credit internally from it own self.

<snip>

Larry

Wow that was quite a reply Larry - almost an essay smile

Let me make these points:

1. Government doesn't create wealth, business does - government  consumes wealth.
2. Credit can and should be created by private capital sources, it isn't necessary for government to do this. Government consumes enormous quantites of credit for its own ill conceived and often useless and wasteful projects.
3. Government interferes in the economy by setting interest rates in an attempt to control the money supply and therefore the economy. This does have an effect on the supply of credit.
4. Taxation channels vast resources through government departments, this is redistributed according to the political agenda of the day - mostly inefficiently.

Now some spending on space and science is IMHO a good thing because it yields enormous benefits. To repeat the question, how much should be spent considering this is all taxpayer money and some of it will be wasted?

Obviously, there a natural limit to the amount of credit the government can create before adversely effecting the currency.

Whether we have a government credit generating system of a private credit generating system, there is indeed a limit to how much credit can be product and what you should use it for. In theory, you have an unlimited amount credit  that you can create out of thin air. But, there a certain amount of credit that needs to be created of the economic system will collapse and that amount of credit has to be generated each and every year of the system will implode on itself. The amount of credit that needs to be created of the United States so it doesn't implode on itself and on the other end Hyper inflate it currency out of existence is somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 billion to 1 trillion dollars per year. That why there a big fight over who get control over the right to generate credit, because they also get to dictate how that credit going to be used and they also are the ones that generally benefit from it too.

The United States hasn't generated credit since John F. Kennedy and his issuance of the silver certificate.

Larry,

#9 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-18 20:30:36

Beside the power and the authority of the United States to lobby taxes on the people, they also have the power to generate credit internally from it own self.

<snip>

Larry

Wow that was quite a reply Larry - almost an essay smile

Let me make these points:

1. Government doesn't create wealth, business does - government  consumes wealth.
2. Credit can and should be created by private capital sources, it isn't necessary for government to do this. Government consumes enormous quantites of credit for its own ill conceived and often useless and wasteful projects.
3. Government interferes in the economy by setting interest rates in an attempt to control the money supply and therefore the economy. This does have an effect on the supply of credit.
4. Taxation channels vast resources through government departments, this is redistributed according to the political agenda of the day - mostly inefficiently.

Now some spending on space and science is IMHO a good thing because it yields enormous benefits. To repeat the question, how much should be spent considering this is all taxpayer money and some of it will be wasted?

cIclops, your locked into a mindset of repeating propaganda with absolutely no bases in fact. You see what you want to see and you don't see what you don't want to see. I do not denie that the Government consumes a certain amount of wealth, but you can't support your claim that the Government doesn't create a certain amount of wealth either and doesn't provide goods and services the American people.

Examples of the US Government and government on all level inside the United States generating wealth:

1. The Tennessee Valley Authority. They are a government corporation that runs a series of dams, lakes, locks, Hydro-electric power plants.

2. The government issued credit that built rail roads and those congressional acts that created those rail roads. They were later privatized, but they were originally built and even run by the government on either the state or federal level.

3. The Army Corp of Engineers manages a series of locks and dams on most of American major water ways. Those locks and dams make much of the Mississippi and it tributaries navigable for caring freight on barges for the private sector. If the Army Corp of Engineers wasn't doing that, much of the Mississippi and it tributaries would be unnavigable to the private sector.

4. The Governments on all levels participate in building roads that make it possible for the private sector to get the resources they need to make there products and to carry there finished products to market.

5. The Government on all levels participate in building dams, to provide water to the cities and sewer system to carry the waste away. This is another good or service that they provide.

6. They build subway system in those big cities and there the only ones that could do it too.

7. The city air ports and the list goes on.

8 The US Post Office.

If this isn't generating wealth, then what do you call it?

Your problem is, when private enterprise does something like build a car. You call that generating wealth, but when the government does something like build a subway system, you don't call that wealth. Both the private sector and the government are providing transportation for people, but you call the private sector generating wealth, but you call the government a consumer.

Larry,

#10 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-17 21:29:20

Hi Larry,

What do you thing of Social Program for the rich people, by the bail out of Bear Stearns by the Federal Reserve fifty billion or more and then cycled through the Federal Government as debt with interest to pay too?

In the great wall street crash of 1929 we learned very harshly some lessons. The first is that we have to protect banks. In the case of 1929 the crash collapsed banks and we had a wave of collateral damage. this was literally destroyed buisnesses that though struggling could have easily have survived. Many small buisnesses simply had one bank account and when that bank collapsed so did there savings. With no cash they could not pay for items or even wages so they went down themselves. Banks by there very nature are closely linked. If one goes then there is a real risk of others going with it too. In 1929 we learned that lesson. It was the total collapse of the banks that kept the crash going on and on and creating the great depression that through almost half of the USA's workforce out of jobs.

In 1987 we had a crash that was actually by nature more severe than the one of 1929 but we had learnt our lesson and kept the banks safe and the Markets knew the Banks where safe. The result was that in a matter of days the crash figures had recovered.

I know it is not fair to protect one element of buisness above others and to provide a get out of Jail free card but we really dont have a choice as it is the only way to protect the whole economy and by its nature ordinary people. I dont in any way like it but necessity it is.

There are two types of Banks, Savings and Investment. Bear Stearns is the latter and it is investment banks which are the ones that stump up the cash to pay for mortgages and for loans ie credit cards, car loans etc. It in turn gets the money to pay for that by borrowing from the safer savings banks.

The credit crunch caused by America's sub prime market worries and the fealing that the Dollar is so weak has made banks unwilling to lend money to each other and as a result Bear Stearns found itself without any cash to pay of outstanding loans even though it had good assets. If Bear Stearns had gone down it would have left a lot of other banks who had loaned it money in a bad position.

Your right there are two types of banks. Actually there is only one kind of bank the other one is actually an investment house and not actually a bank, although it called a bank. But, that supposed investment house is actually just generating paper and passing it around to other members of this scam. As long as you can keep increasing the face amount of those worthless pieces of paper and give the allusion of the value of that paper is increasing in dollars value, the everything OK. But, like any Ponzi Scam or pyramid that demands new people to keep it going or chain letters, sooner or later it has to collapse and then there trouble.

It was those private banks and Wall Street along with there segregates in the Federal Reserve that is also a private bank, that cause the 1929 Stock Market Crash. I was FDR regulating those institution that held them in check and what made it less likely that we would have another Depression. However, if you been watching you will have seen  those rules and regulation have been removed and they have even declared the Federal Reserve to be Autonomous from the Federal Government and that the US Government has absolutely no authority over them. The reason that there a credit crunch that brought down Bear Stearns is, nobody wants there bad paper that not worth the paper it written on. Those banks and other members of Wall Street have there own bad paper they can't get rid of and there not interested in buy more bad paper from Bear Stearns and increase there holding of worthless paper even if it at a discount and greatly reduced in price.

Larry,

#11 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-17 21:00:58

If business are so good at creating jobs on there own, then why did the US Government have to bail them out during the Great Depression by having those four river project to prime the pump to get the US Economy going?

Government often acts because of public or corporate pressure, it doesn't mean that it's the best thing to do. Do you bail out a friend who has made bad decisions or let them solve their own problems? Which is better? Would you bail out the guy next door?

Spending oodles of tax payer's money is always good for somebody. Space exploration and science would not be funded by private capital, neither would most other areas of science. Government funding speeds up developments in these areas, and they are clearly of benefit to the whole of society. The question is how much benefit and at what cost?

What you fail to understand cIclops is:

Beside the power and the authority of the United States to lobby taxes on the people, they also have the power to generate credit internally from it own self. We all know that the United States can generate a trillion dollars through taxes. But, what you don't seem to get in your head is that the US Government can also generate another trillion dollars worth of credit by calling it into existence by the power invested in them by the US Constitution. You seem to think that it not the best thing for the US Government to do, to have the US Government investing in building up the United States and the infrastructure that support a modern society. The truth of the matter is, if the US Government, state governments and city, county government didn't build that infrastructure, it wouldn't have gotten built and we wouldn't have a modern society. When the US Government has control over the credit system, they build up the physical infrastructure of the United States. When the Private banker have control over the credit system, they generate debt and draw money out of building up the physical infrastructure. They create companies like Bear Stearns that generate worthless piles of debts or derivatives. You can't wear it or eat it, it just exist and can bring down the financial house when comes down.

The US Government should have stepped in and taken over the Federal Reserve and declared it bankrupt and then Declare Bear Stearns Bankrupt and derivatives side of Chase bankrupt too along with the other banks that have derivatives also along with the rest of Wall Street. We would want to save the saving and checking account side of those banks, because we will need to setup a new economic system to replace the one that is in the process of collapsing. But, before you respond in protest to what I just wrote, consider this for a moment. There are only three possibilities that we can possibly have and they are:

1. Try to save this financial house of cards which is in the process of collapsing, like what they Bear Stearns. Bear Stearns is only the tip of the ice berg, Chase has 77 trillion dollars of worthless derivations. The Gross National Product of the United States for one Year is only about 7 trillion dollars.

What will happen?

You will have run away inflation and then the dollars will evaporate out of existence like the 1923 German Republic D Mark did. The only way that they slowed down the collapse and why we haven't collapsed already was the creating of over half a trillion dollars or more and maybe a trillion dollars or more. That there not telling us about. Which will be Hyper inflationary. Any attempt to save that worthless paper will destroy the US Dollars by Hyper Inflating it out of existence.

2. Do nothing and it will collapse on it own into a 1929 Depression, very simple.

3. Start off saying the whole system is bankrupt and it need US Federal Government to intervene to setup a new economic system to save the United States and the rest of the world too. You don't save those Bear Stearns derivatives. But you say to Bear Stearns, your bankrupts. Now we might be able to save your building. You say to the rest of Wall Street that has the same problem, bankrupt too and we not going to bail you out either. To Chase and the other banks that have derivatives, your bankrupt too. Now we will save your saving account and those checking accounts by individual and for those productive sectors of the US Economy like farmers, factories etc, because, we need them for setting up a new economy. Yes, we will keep you in business for there sake and not necessarily like what you did, but you will be re-regulated like what FDR did to hold you in check.

Part two of this operation of restarting the US Economy is the US Government building infrastructure like those four river projects of FDR. For Abe Lincoln, it was the Transcontinental rail road. The Second and First National Banks were government owned and operated banks that also had an infrastructural projects going on. That how the Eire Canal got built and most of the Rail Roads of the East got built. For John F. Kennedy, it was the National Moon Mission Goal that he set for the United States to achieve before this decade was out to land a man on the moon and return him safe back to the Earth. Now off of this government building program, we have private enterprise adding there input to the mex and an important part of the process too. So I am not suggesting a new idea. The idea that I am suggesting is what the United States does when everything else fails and then we goes back to it, because it works and because, nothing else does work. When every the United States goes back to it, we re-build ourselves after coming to near destruction with those failed policies that don't.

So what kind of infrastructure should the United States build to both rebuild America and advance the human race also?

1. Rebuild and modernize the rail roads.
2. Build a Nation Wide Amtrack levitated rail system for whole United States and offer it to the rest of the world too.
3. Setup a subway system for maybe 70 major city inside the United States to interface with those other rail system and the air port too.
4. Build nuclear power plants and put fusion on a very high priority to be developed and brought on line to replace fission power.
5. We want to develop new technologies, so we have a space program that has goals just outside our capability to accomplish with present technologies. We don't want off the shelf technologies for our space program. It defeats one of our primary reason for having a space program, which is to develop new technologies and not cycle through the same old stuff that we can get off the shelf. We are looking for the technological spin offs that John F. Kennedy got with his National Moon Mission Goal. He got a fourteen to One Dollar return on his investment. If we don't get that return on our investment in technological spin offs, then were not interested in the space program. You don't get technological spin offs with off the shelf technologies or you don't get very many technological spin offs with off the shelf technologies.

Larry,

#12 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-16 20:18:00

Social spending though tends to basic education, basic medical care and of course pensions/unemployment benefits. The majority of all money collected will go to these priorities which is needless to say right but it becomes a major burden on a state to pay these.

The solution to that problem is:

Have a government inspired building program, like build things we need like subway, super trains, nuclear power plants and even an aggressive space program. When you do that, you replace people who need to be helped, with people who have good paying jobs and who are themselves tax payers and are better able to help themselves without government help. We get the infrastructure that we need to have to have a modern society and advance the human race and we really need that infrastructure too. That the beauty of it, it serve both needs at the same time by giving them productive member of society, we get something we really need and they become tax payer too.

Larry,

#13 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-16 20:07:24

No seriously though, the point of social spending would be to to share everybody's resources, for the benefit of everybody (yeah even the guys making a shit load of money) Good education, Infrastructure, Communication, R&D, Medical care..

The trouble is it doesn't work that way. In the US, the top fraction of one percent or income earners pay 40% of the taxes. The bottom 95% pay the same amount, 40%. Whats wrong with this picture? The rich do not use goverment services more than everyone else, probably the other way around.

You can't keep milking the rich like a bottomless money pit out of envy and jealously and expect them to still be here. Not unless you intend to invade the Cayman Islands.

Instead you have to admit that endless social engineering programs are a failure on the national, state/provincial, and local/city/municipal level and the governments only responsibility is that of physical infrastucture and material necessities, and not nanny state enforcement.

The best part is these costs are fixed based on population, and only grow when the taxable population does.

Speaking of Social Programs:

What do you thing of Social Program for the rich people, by the bail out of Bear Stearns by the Federal Reserve fifty billion or more and then cycled through the Federal Government as debt with interest to pay too?

That on top of another four to five billion dollars that Federal Reserve has already created out of thin air to finance those rich people gambling debt and submitted credit created to the US Government to pay with interest. Actually, I would like to see those billion air and million air eat there own bad paper instead of having the Federal Reserve generate Federal Reserve Note that we tax payers have to pay back with interest. If they don't want to pay for social programs, then we should have to pay for there gambling debt.

That sound reasonable to me.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

Larry,

#14 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-16 16:16:25

The two main reason that the United States should spend money on space projects is:
1. To generate business activities for domestic manufacturers with government contracts. To create good paying jobs for Americans with good benefits.
2. Give government contracts to domestic business to develop new technologies so we can accomplish new national goals in space like the Kennedy Moon Mission Program. Which will cause technological spin off like the Kennedy Moon Mission did, like fourteen dollars returned to the US Economy for every one dollars in the Moon Mission Goal.

No Larry, those are really bad reasons for government spending on space. Firstly, government should not be supporting private business with contracts to create jobs. These won't be good jobs, they will be tax payer supported ones. Good jobs are created when a business makes the right products and services. This is exactly what happened in the Soviet Union, when government tried to create all the jobs.

If business are so good at creating jobs on there own, then why did the US Government have to bail them out during the Great Depression by having those four river project to prime the pump to get the US Economy going?

The Kennedy Moon Project had the same impact on the US Economy, but on a slightly smaller scale.

Second, spin offs and new technologies are hard to predict and develop - and government is not very good at doing it. If useful technology comes out of a space project, fine - projects should be selected for their goals and objectives not because they might produce a future "spinoff". It sometimes makes sense for government to target specific high risk technologies, but often these projects fail. If a project can make a 14 to 1 return on investment, private business will happily do it, government subsidy is not needed.

Can you name one area where the Moon Mission Goal didn't have some major impact on the US Economy?

Like the medical field, computer, metalergy, etc.

Larry,

#15 Re: Space Policy » Outsourcing US exploration of the Moon/Mars to foreigners. » 2008-04-13 20:59:20

Space products and services are produced all over the world, sometimes the best ones are produced overseas. Why cripple a project by forbidding them to use foreign input? If a project is totally outsourced it will have to justify itself in a wider context - for example DSN stations are located in Australia and Spain - should they be shut down?

The two main reason that the United States should spend money on space projects is:
1. To generate business activities for domestic manufacturers with government contracts. To create good paying jobs for Americans with good benefits.
2. Give government contracts to domestic business to develop new technologies so we can accomplish new national goals in space like the Kennedy Moon Mission Program. Which will cause technological spin off like the Kennedy Moon Mission did, like fourteen dollars returned to the US Economy for every one dollars in the Moon Mission Goal.

cIclops, you have the American tax payer finance some massive space project and then sacrifice those job good paying jobs so some of those same Americans can't have those jobs and sacrifice those technological spin off that can return fourteen dollars for every dollars invested in it, then no, I am not interested in that space program. Matter of fact cIclops, if you came up with that kind of plan, for having the United States finance a space program, then I would appose it and even demand that we get out of the space business. The only time that the United States has any right to get into any kind of project like that, is if it or the American People are receiving any benefits out of it. If we aren't getting any benefits out of it, then the United States shouldn't be investing in it. The United States should be engaged in financing major projects like building dams, roads, canals, a Kennedy type Moon Mission Program. No a space program that is beneficial to the United States, doesn't have to be detrimental to the rest of the world either and can also be beneficial to them too.

If you object to costly stealth bombers and military occupations, they you will also object to even more expensive social programs that turn citizens into government dependents.

We object to the costly stealth bombers, because it returns very little back to the US Economy and even those costly stealth bombers of being out sourced overseas too. I use to work in an Air Craft Manufacturing Plant where they use to make F-16 Landing Gear. They closed down the factory and sent the equipment like mills, lathes overseas and now they make the F-16 Landing Gear for the US Air Force and not us. So we aren't even getting the right to build them either and we are being put out of business. However, we have the right to fly them into war with them and die in them, when they get shoot down. I rather do something more productive with our money like re-building the infrastructure inside the United States or do a Kennedy kind of Moon Mission Goal.

Larry,

#16 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » How do you build a physical economy? » 2008-04-09 22:54:07

Have we learned nothing from our mercantilist past.

Larry, how is having a national bank that funds infrastructure projects be granting credit fundamentally different from the current system. Now we borrow from private and international sources to print money, resulting in debt and a valueless currency. With a national bank won't we just be printing increasingly valueless currency?

There are several fundamental differences between a private bank that owned by individuals in a mercantilist system of capitalism for the benefit of the few to the detriment of the many. Then there the Government Bank owned and operated by the government based on the General Welfare of the nation and possibly for the world population at large Under the US Constitution. This was the primary reason that the US revolution was fought over was to decide who controls this money supply. I know this isn't taught in schools and your collage professor will challenge this assertion of mine, but this we the primary reason for the American Revolution. Now there were many other reason for that American revolution, but this was one of the key reasons for that revolution.

I think it will be easier to explain it to you by giving you a brief outline how each system is setup and how it functions. We will start with the Federal Reserve or the World Bank or the Bank of England, it doesn't matter, there all private banks own by individuals to there own benefit and the expense of the rest of up. These banks are basically a giant rip off, but here how it set up:

Federal Reserve System It Charter and how it operates:

1. 1913 Charter that violates the US Constitution to give a private bank the power to act like a bank of last resort to create credit.
2. The Federal Reserve is a Private Bank that a Corporation with stock that are owned by other membered banks like Bank America, Chase Bank and European Banks that aren't associated with the US Government. So the Federal Reserve isn't necessarily loyal to the United States or the American people, but to primarily foreign banks, which may and usually don't have our best interest in mined.
3. When the Federal Reserve System Generates Credit, like they did for Bear Sterns when they went bankrupt and they were bailed out by Chase with about 50 billion dollars for the Federal Reserve System in the hands of Chase Bank buy out. That fifty billion Federal Reserve Note, became a debt note that the American People are going to have to pay back with there taxes and pay interest on that Federal Reserve Note too. We had an exchange of worthless paper at Bear Sterns for Federal Reserve Note that the American people are now on line to pay back. Chase got Bear Sterns for 10 cent on the dollars from what they were supposed to have been worth or 500 hundred billion or more. But, that not the end of the problem, Chase has 77 trillions of worthless derivatives also which is many times greater than Bear Sterns worthless paper problem. To put this in perspective as to how bad this is. The US Gross Product for one year is only 7 trillion dollars a year. Or that worthless paper at Chase is seven times bigger than the US Gross National Product. Or put it another way, Chase has 77 trillions of dollars with no collateral behind it to support it or give it any reason to exist.
4. To get the American people to pay a private bank called the Federal Reserve, the IRS was created to enforce the will of the Federal Reserve on the American People. The IRS is a government agency that acts as the enforcer for a private bank.
5. Those membered banks also have there own way of creating credit or making it appear that they have more money than they really have by fractionalizing or borrowing against there own bank accounts. It works like this, if bank has a billion dollars and they barrow against it ten times, it looks like they have 10 billion dollars instead of just one billion dollars. They have to keep a fraction of that amount in that account all the time, but they can loan the rest of it out or in this illustration loan it to themselves into another account. Then they can use there supposed ten billion dollars worth of assets they hang more worthless paper and some of that being those derivatives. As long as they can keep that worthless paper increasing in value, then everything appears to look OK, but once they can't keep increasing that amount, then the game over. It like a Chain letter scheme, there only so many people out there, before you run out of people that can join in, before the Chain letter scheme falls apart. That what you are seeing right now, there Chain letter scheme is in the process of falling apart.  Worldwide there is over 500 trillion dollars of worthless paper called derivatives that in the process of evaporation and it will take down the entire financial system when it evaporates too.
6. Wealth is pegged to paper or gold or silver, etc. Make your choice, but it not pegged to the physical economy as such. It has some arbitrary value in the minds of those people in power that has that bank which they are using to extract wealth from everybody else. That how there scam works. There victim has to be ignorant or fearful enough to be forced to go along with there scam. But, money itself or as an idea of it being wealth is completely non existent and is only in the minds of the people using it.

Before we go to the First & Second National Bank System of the United States, I would like to go over what money should be and what it should not be. Also, the founding fathers of the United States understood this banking system that I just went over. They called it British Tyranny. It the British Empire which was based on Corporatism or corporation controlling the government. The British Empire was a nation controlled by private interest of the elite and the suppression of the masses into poverty and slavery. Depopulation of the mass by the elite is also one of there tactics so they can maintain there control over the people. Too many people, then you have to technological develop and educate those masses, then you can't maintain your control over them. Fascism is another form of Corporatism and was also a corporation taking over the government in both Italy and Germany and even most of the world during World War II. The United States was spared going Fascist during World War II, because of FDR and his policies.

Money and Credit only real uses are:

1. Money should only be used for a medium of exchange and for nothing else.
2. If credit can be generated, then it can also evaporate too and it will eventually do that too. It start out as Zero value before it generated and it will return to Zero value when it evaporates.
3. It is Physical assets that are wealth and not money itself. Money and credit are soft asset that should be use to promote business activities in the physical economy and not the physical economy being held hostage to those soft assets called money and credit.
4. Credit needs to be restrictive, but it need to be generated to keep the economic system functioning and to expand the physical economy or that credit has no right to be generated or to exist.
5. Reasons to generate credit, to build infrastructure and to develop new technologies that advance the productive capabilities of the work force and generate new kinds of business and new products for the market place.

The First & Second National Bank and use of credit:

1. It was Government own vs privately owned.
2. Instead of having a government borrowing money from a private bank that generating credit and paying interest on that credit that they generated out of thin air, the US Government would be generating that credit and making the rules for the use of that credit.
3. Alexander Hamilton created self extinguishing debt for the productive sector of the United States in the private sector. He would generate a ten or twenty year note to finance some major project and then have no roll over on it or it would go to zero value. For most of the first fifty years of the United States, that kind of credit was being used to finance the build up of the United States as a nation. That where a fair portion of the money or credit came from for transforming the United States into the world power we are today.
4. The United State could also create credit of a certain value and borrow against it instead of borrowing from a private bank and paying them interest too.
5. People in the productive sector of the economy like farmers, miner and factories owners could borrow money from the US Government at 2% or 3% simple interest. The primary reason for the loan, was to generate business in the productive private sector of the economy. Usually that loan was run through the local private bank and the 2% or 3% was paid to that bank for administration purposes.
6. If we had some enterprising new inventor with a new invention, he could also appeal to the US Government for a loan to go into business and buy the equipment that he needs to go into business. Fulton Steam boat comes to mind as one of the things that was financed and Colt rifles also.

The heart of the problem is the fact that no party in existence, at no level of government, can get elected on a platform of living within its means. No level of economic idiocy is of the table for the people who want power, and are willing to bribe people with stuff they don't have to get it.

Democracy ceases to function when you can vote yourself the right to other peoples stuff.

Then we need to get people who both understand what the US Constitution stands for and are dedicated to promote those interest or they don't have any business being either President of the United States or in Congress.

Larry,

#17 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » How do you build a physical economy? » 2008-04-05 22:46:47

Larry,

I'm not sure we fundamentally disagree about anything. I'm just trying to suggest there are many other aspects to the problem of economic development. An extra terrestial world is a very strange place economically. This is a new chapter in human history. It does require some new thinking I believe.

Whilst the US government's investment programme has some relevance, it is not a defining template for how to take the Mars colony forward.

The basic economic principle do not change whether it was the past colonization of the Americas or Africa or today for our plan to colonizing Mars. It will be government sponsored whether you like it or not or choose to agree with me or not. It a battle between two world views and two different banking system and concepts of what wealth is. It a battle between the British Empirical system and the American System of economic based around the US Constitution. It is the United States based on that republican government banking credit system that made the United State a great and mighty country and wealthy country compared to the rest of the world that was victims British Empire during most of the last 200 hundred years or so. Matter of fact, if the United States doesn't put the Federal Reserve into Bankruptcy and reorganized into a Third National Banking System and derivatives are canceled out because there worthless paper, then the United States will collapse and disintegrate as a nation. Bear Stearns has collapsed with it the sixth larges Wall Street derivative dealer. A major bank in Ohio has also collapsed and people can't get there money there. The US Dollars is dropping like a rock and other countries are starting to drop the US Currency as the world reserve currency. It was the Federal Reserve that caused the Great Depression in 1929 and it was the Regulation that FDR put into place and the credit that he generated to build those government projects that restarted the US Economy. It is the removal of those regulation and the going to a floating exchange rate by Nixon in 1972 that put us in the economic problem that we in now. This putting the Federal Reserve as the sole regulator for the banking and Wall Street is exactly what caused the Great Depression. The Federal Reserve is a private bank with a government charter to act like the central bank of the United States.

If you don't think that the Federal Reserve is a private bank, go to this web site for more information.

http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5933

Larry,

#18 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » How do you build a physical economy? » 2008-04-05 16:16:29

Martian -

You can't just will jobs into being. Essentially space jobs are not productive in themselves at the moment, although they do help the USA and other countries maintain themselves at the forefront of technology which makes their labour much more productive generally in the economy.

)

I have already answered your question further up in the post and so I won't waste my repeating my answer to you. What suggesting on doing Alexander Hamilton, Lincoln and FDR did it and on a limited bases John F. Kennedy did it. So I am not suggestion on doing something that never been done inside the United States. Kennedy Moon Mission is also an example of that policy that I suggest on doing in space too.

Go do a study of those people and then you can come back and we can have an intelligent discussion on how we set up an economic system. That the problem that I have with most Americans, they don't understand what kind of economic system that the United States is suppose to be. We aren't a free market and trade system which is basically British Colonialism. The US Economic is a Government credit system of financing public infrastructural project and partly financing the private sector in the productive sector like farmer, manufacturing and mining. It a government regulated system with trade barrios and such.

Larry,

#19 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » How do you build a physical economy? » 2008-04-05 10:52:28

To build a physical economy will require INVESTMENT, INVESTMENT, INVESTMENT etc etc

The kickbacks for this will never be immediate. It will a program a government does to protect its future.

There is an immediate benefit of the Federal Government financing those massive project like subways, super trains, dams, levees, NAWAPA, nuclear power plants.

The short term benefit is the millions of jobs that being created to build all those things and the tax base that being created from those new job that the American people are being employed to do.

But, as you said, there is a long term benefit that take time to get it. It would probably take twenty years to build a national levitated rail system for the United States. Then that infrastructure has about twenty to thirty year life expectancy before you have to replace it. So we are looking at a forty to fifty year life cycle for our national levitated rail system to build it and pay off those bonds and using it.

Larry,

#20 Re: Not So Free Chat » Supreme Court declared the Federal Reserve a Private Bank! » 2008-04-04 19:07:21

The US Supreme Court has declared the Federal Reserve a Private bank and not a Government agency. Go to this web site for more information and the documentation of that fact.

http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/frcourt.html

This web site go over some of the history of what the Federal Reserve has done to the United States and the people who are behind the Federal Reserve. This is a Larouche web site, but it has a lot of good information on this subject.

http://www.larouchepac.com/

I will come up and then punch the button on the British Empire or the Human race to see this video. It about five minutes long.

Larry,

#21 Re: Human missions » Mass to Mars - a minimal approach » 2008-04-02 21:46:22

Any comments on some of the payload  tonnages for my six person mission plan as set out below? 

3 tonnes – CNC machines, lathes, electric motors etc.,

Is this all your going to have for your Machine Shop?

One CNC Lathes, because that would be just about the weight of one fair size CNC Lathe that you would need to do your machining.

Were you planing on having an CNC multi-Axes Mill too?

Were you also planning on having grinder too for those fine finishings that you need to have for those close tolerances?

Were you also planning on having vices, clamps and other tie down pieces so you can hold your pieces down?

Were you also planning on having several types of tool holder for holding those different types of inserts and boring bars?

Were you planning on having drills of various sizes and grind wheels that it takes to resharpen those drills?

Were you also planning on taking up the tools for tightening up those bolts, like the end wrenches, Alan Head wrenches, ball peen hammers, rubber mallets, ect?

Were you also going to have welder too and the welding rods and brazing rods to weld two pieces together?

Do you think that three tons will be enough to get everything you think that you will need, for your minimum Mars Colony?

Larry,

#22 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Fight to save the earth from tiny black hole! » 2008-04-02 16:32:06

There an effort to stop the creation of black hole on Earth without safety study to see if it safe to create them.

Larry,

http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/figh … 10851.html

#23 Re: Human missions » Typology of colonisation plans. » 2008-04-01 20:49:25

The problem with going with the minimalist kind of colonisation is that you won't develop the technology that it will take to have a successful Mars colony, which we don't currently have right now. You will go with the infrastructure that you need to take a large population to Mars and to support them while you setting up that Mars colony. If we go with our current technology and with the current infrastructure in place to Mars, we will have a high mortality rate of anybody that we send to Mars and a small colony on Mars with absolutely no of making it a big human colony at all. After a ten to twenty or possibly even a thirty year time frame they will give the whole project up as being too expensive and because we are losing too many people in this Mars project.

What I am saying is, it physically impossible to establish a Mars colony by the means that your thinking of establishing a Mars colony of any size.

Chemical rockets are useless to us for colonizing of Mars, because there too slow, don't carry enough mass or cargo for the Mars colony and/or carry enough people safely to Mars for the colony that we want to setup on Mars.

We may or may not be able to send a small number of people using chemical rocket to Mar, but there will be a high mortality rate if we choose to use chemical rocket to send our astronauts to Mars for that small base. You will need radiation shielding and artificial gravity etc, which will further complicate the problems of using chemical rockets for your colonization project. Then the fuel is high mass with low energy output to push our ship to Mars. Yes, I heard of Mars Direct. I heard of manufacturing fuels on Mars, etc, etc. Whenever you bet the farm like that and make it a habit of betting the farm like this, it only a matter of time when you will lose your bet and people will die.

There only one way and only one way out of this problem and that to go nuclear or some other type of new high energy density source that can push a large mass with the minimal amount fuel mass like nuclear fission or fusion powered rockets. Which means you will have to develop that technology because it currently doesn't exist and we have to have it if we want to do our colonization program. The energy output of fission powered rockets is like several times to maybe a thousand times the output of chemical rocket with fusion power having two to four times the power of fission power.

Larry,

#24 Re: Human missions » Space stations beyond ISS » 2008-04-01 08:53:26

I think I will jump on that idea before GCNRevenger get here to jump on it. This idea has been floated across this board several times and that idea has been shot down several times too. The problem with sending up the ET tank are:

1. It takes more fuel to take the ET tank all the way into space and virtually eliminates the use of the shuttle bay, because of the need for more fuel to get that tank into space.
2. The tank deteriorates over time with that insulation on it and leave insulation in orbit.
3. You would still have to cut hole in the end of those tanks or put a collar
on the ends of those tanks and do other modification in space on those tanks to use them for the purpose that you stated you want to use them for. Then they would still not be good for the purpose that you wanted to use them for with a major overlay of material over those tanks to put radiation shielding on them and other such things.
4. We could not modify those tanks on Earth to solve that orbital problem of re manufacturing those tanks in space, because dual use tanks would be twice as heavy or heavier than the current tanks, which would be too heavy for our use as an external tank. Beside dual use item don't work very good for either use you want to put them to, because of the need to design them differently for each of those two purposes.

The only way that you could even come close to doing something like that would be to make ten to twenty special launches for that pacific purpose, but not using those ET tanks, but using Bigelow habitat.
We would have to go with a Bigelow habitat on a cargo shuttle and where we discard the shuttle and put the Bigelow habitat in it place se be get the maximum size for our habitat that we can get. The you would have to launch ten to twenty cargo shuttle and Bigelow habitats to get a sufficient number of Bigelow habitats into make our ring. A Bigelow habitat that big would probably cost five hundred million dollars per habitat. A cargo shuttle launch would probably cost between one to two billion dollars to launch. So it would probably cost forty to sixty billion dollars to put up that kind of space station of the wheel type.

Larry,

#25 Re: Life support systems » Martian industry » 2008-03-30 17:31:55

You would want to discard the Methanol and the Ethanol from your system too and go with Hydrogen Oxygen base fuel system only. The amount of labor and resources that you would have to invest in growing those plants and then converting it into Methanol and Ethanol would be a terrible waste of resource, labor, power and generate toxic waste also like it does on Earth.

If you go straight Hydrogen Oxygen based fuel using electric nuclear power plants for breaking up the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, then you get the maximum band for the buck for the minimum energy to produce that power with the minimum amount of labor to produce that power with the minimum amount of pollution created by using that energy supply.

All you got to do is crack water into it basic components of Hydrogen and Oxygen to get that power supply and place to store it until you use it. When you burn it, it waste product is water water vapor. So you don't have to worry about the pollution problem like you will with the other fuel in your list.

Larry,

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