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#1 Re: Life support systems » Learn to live on Mars from Sudbury - Underground Greenhouse » 2004-10-25 21:30:43

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Conten … =yes]Jules Vernes' Nursery

I saw this is the Toronto Star and immediately it hit me that this could be yet another Mars analog project that is underway. The energry use must be ENOURMOUS, as the article acknowledges. The thing that I find most fascinating is that the ambient temperature is 25 C at the depth of the planting area, as well as the high humidity. I wonder if this occurs on Mars as well. Thoughts?

I attached the article so that you don't have to get a login.

Jules Verne's nursery
In a steamy world three CN Towers under Sudbury, Inco is raising pine trees


LISA WRIGHT
BUSINESS REPORTER

SUDBURY — It only takes four minutes on a bumpy cage ride to travel the length of three CN Towers — not up but straight down — and land directly in the heat and the heart of one of Inco Ltd.'s oldest mines.
It's dirty, dank and so dark you can't see a hand in front of your face without a light when you step onto the 1,400-metre level of the Creighton mine, where the veteran nickel giant has been digging, drilling and scooping up base metals for over a century. A slight breeze from a ventilation door makes the typically suffocating humidity at least tolerable.
So when some lights are switched on and sight is restored, the last thing you'd expect to see in this otherwise inhospitable environment buried between the rock walls and gravel is something green — or anything growing at all.
But in fact, you can't see the nickel for the trees down here at Inco's underground nursery, which has been a big but fairly quiet part of the re-greening of the well-mined and logged Sudbury basin for the last 20 years.
Inco grows 50,000 subterranean seedlings a season of red pine and jack pine more than a kilometre down the 2.3-kilometre mine shaft that is set to plunge further in the next decade to reach more nickel, copper and platinum-group metals. The tree nursery is located at a higher level that has already been depleted of its resources and is no longer in use yet is still easily accessible via mine hoist.
After three months of germination, the 5-inch pellets and seedlings are then brought up to the surface and planted on and around Inco property to fulfill its obligation to re-claim the barren land after years of wear and tear from mining, smelting and refining. Another 200,000 seedlings are also grown annually in the greenhouse operated year-round at Copper Cliff.
"The idea is to put things back to the way they were, back to their natural state," says Dave Taylor, superintendent of Inco's natural environment group in Sudbury.
"We'd like to try and restore the stressed land. There's a lot of it around Sudbury as anyone can see," he notes.
Growing underground seems completely counter to the concept of, well, garden-variety horticulture that normally occurs out in the open air under just the skies and some much-needed rainfall. But it turns out that a steamy mine is a perfect environment for tree growing. For starters there's a constant humidity and geothermal heat of 25C year-round.
"The underground nursery works because there is an ambient rock temperature, it's warm and you don't have to heat a greenhouse in cold weather in Sudbury. And it makes good sense because the facility is available so there's no added cost at Creighton," explains Taylor.
Fertilizer, electricity and water are pumped in at minimal cost compared to the expense of heating a regular greenhouse through the sub-zero winters, he says. The underground forest of baby trees is Y-shaped and fairly narrow at 10 feet wide and 600 feet long with fertilizer and water storage tanks at the wide end. It needs 2,000 litres of both water and fertilizer per day, so the tanks are on timers.
To get things going it requires 30 1,000-watt light bulbs to give it the artificial effect of sunlight, which stay on 24 hours a day the first week, then 18 on and 6 off for three weeks and then 12 on and off — just like outdoors — the rest of the time.
"We turn the lights on in the evening to save money. The plants don't know the difference between night and day down there," jokes Taylor.
"We start planting in late January and by late May, after the frost, we're bringing them up to the surface," says Mike Peters, Inco's grounds supervisor in Sudbury, who is down there a few times a week during the growing season to ensure everything is running ship-shape.
He and a skeleton staff of four others work on the Creighton mine's cage schedule, so they go down at 7 a.m. with the rest of the miners and the first chance they have to come back up is noon.
"I think I've been going underground longer than most of the miners. I've been doing reclamation work here for 30 years," he says.
"We plant most of them on our property and then we donate them to the City (of Sudbury), Boy Scouts and other charities," he says, adding nearby students in Grades 5 to 8 also help plant trees in the spring.
Contractors do most of the planting of the 5-inch seedlings, which can grow to a height of 80 feet. They continue planting today while the soil is still relatively warm along with hydro seeding, in which they pump fertilizer and seeds from tanker trucks at roadside. They also just finished 300 acres of aerial seeding and have done about 3,000 acres in total in the Sudbury area.
Curious students pretty much planted the initial seed for the Inco nursery.
"We started the underground tree operation in 1986," explains Peters. "It all started out as a research study in the late '70s when they tried growing vegetables as a pilot project prompted by Laurentian University students as a way to find alternatives in an energy crisis."
But it was determined the mine wasn't sustainable for crops like carrots and cucumbers so they scratched that plan and eventually tried out trees, particularly since they were taking a lot of heat at the time for being big-time polluters who cared not about destroying the land.
"It's an ongoing story and Inco has a commitment to it," says Peters, adding other U.S. mining companies have recently approached Inco for their expertise on starting an underground nursery.
Recently, a Saskatoon company used an abandoned zinc mine in Flin Flon, Man., to grow medicinal marijuana for the federal government, but with rather unsatisfactory results.
"We get that joke a lot too (about trying out that crop) but we say, no, we can't do that," laughs Peters.
Earlier this year, Inco handed out 10,000 of their underground seedlings to hockey fans with a "Grow Leafs Grow" logo at the Air Canada Centre at the Toronto company's annual Sudbury Saturday Night theme bash.
For the most part Inco has been running the underground nursery fairly quietly for the last 20 years even though it's a good news story from just about anyone's perspective.
"It's a good thing to do. I'm always glad when they find ways to keep communities supported," says Joan Kuyek, national co-ordinator for Ottawa-based Mining Watch.
"Reclaiming the area is very important. They're getting a lot out of that community so it's only right that they give something back," she says.
Inco uses red and jack pine because they grow faster than white pine and do well in poorer soils such as the sand and gravel and clay native to the forests in the Sudbury area, Peters says.
The pellets are taken underground in January on sheets, 84 to a tray. All 50,000 are piled onto two rail cars that are pushed along the narrow nursery for planting by electric locomotive. From there they use a vacuum seeder in which a bar drops the seeds into each pellet.
They generally double-seed to ensure success.
Both the pellets and the seeds are just 2 cents each. They buy them from New Brunswick company Jiffy Products Ltd.
Another cost saver is that instead of renting the vacuum seeder each year as they always have, they are in the process of purchasing one for $10,000 this year.
As a result of being pushed by activist groups and government, which now legally requires mining companies to have closure plans when their mines wind down, things look a lot different these days in the Sudbury basin compared to just 20 or 30 years ago.
"Sudbury was such an eyesore (before this) that it was used to fight mine expansion elsewhere, in other parts of the world. They took pictures of the blackened landscape," Kuyek noted.
But as Taylor says: "The difference has been dramatic, especially for people who have moved away and come back. We're trying to put things back the best we can to nature."
"It's nice to look out over your life over 30 years and see what you've done," adds Peters, pointing to the evergreens surrounding him in the forest. "Especially in the areas where I've planted them. Everyone from my dad to my kids have planted some of these," he says, smiling.

#3 Re: Human missions » Mars Simulation Project - MSP v. 2.76 released » 2004-08-07 09:08:20

You should try running scenarious similiar to how the Flashline MARS Station is built, or the desert one, just the for the sake of curiousity. Just my uninhibited 2 cents.

#4 Re: Not So Free Chat » Doom3 Released, takes place on Mars - Video Game with revolutionary 3D Engine » 2004-08-07 09:03:28

Thanks for the good review from a Mars fan. I think this should have ended up in free chat instead though.

#5 Re: Life support systems » Fast Airlock - Form-fitting, hydraulic airlock » 2004-08-04 05:37:56

I do really find the idea interesting, but I have to say two things:

Is the hab "birthing" the astronaut?

and

I hope they are not claustrophobic.

Pretty interesting idea though.

#6 Re: Human missions » Landing Sites » 2004-07-31 14:52:32

Or...wait...we could randomize the terrain using a giant supercomputer so that it looks like Mars but random variables are thrown in (so we don't have to actually scan the surface). This would be much cheaper and is therefore a good idea. GO armchair!

#7 Re: Human missions » A Night in the Hab - ...and your neighbor snores LOUDLY » 2004-07-27 14:23:52

I'm sure NASA has a very high-expense research program that is currently looking into the idea of martian-gravity safe noseplugs. It allows me to sleep at night. WOAH

#8 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Anarchism - Anything goes » 2004-07-23 09:08:26

Isn't anarchism, as political (contradiction in terms?) about the highest degree of personal freedom, but combined with getting along, and working together with fellow humans?

One of the most hilarious parts of Bowling for Columbine was when a girl was suspended (or in some way punished) for trying to form an "anarchist club"....that's right folks...an "anarchist club" at her school.

Yes, anarchy is silly and impossible. If earth government declares that "Mars will be an anarchic society!" then it means they just choose not to acknowledge the government that WILL form there. Humans join in packs and organize better together - we are used to it since we are doing it for thousands of years. Declaring something an anarchy is just denying to yourself the organization that exists there.

#9 Re: Not So Free Chat » VNS Therapy » 2004-07-20 17:09:01

First of all, I have to say it is wonderful that we are actually beginning to use technology to improve our lives in this way.

Michael Crichton wrote a book about this called "The Terminal Man". The book had the same familiar, biting, writing of him. It started out with some sort of criminal who attacked people during seizures or something. The treatment worked for a while, then he naturally became a serial killer who also was really smart or something. Techno-horror makes me angry. Also, this makes me hate Michael Crichton. I just had to get that out. But, really that is awesome. Congrats, Cindy.

#10 Re: Not So Free Chat » Be a rocket scientist - Take a class » 2004-07-20 16:58:58

Holy cow! This looks awesome! $195? Not too shabby!

#11 Re: Life support systems » Nutrition » 2004-07-20 16:54:52

Some people in India get along well on 700 calories/day.
Maybe there will be screening for low calorie usage.

But how much do these people accomplish other than just surviving? We need healthy, alert, active people all the time (who also have a warm glow in thier bellies).

#12 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Aliens Shmaliens - ...why not ask THE question?? » 2004-07-16 08:38:47

Through its profile of Mercury de Sade, a computer programmer obsessed with the erotic potential of alien life, Extraterrestrial Sex Fetish introduces a new perversion into the lexicon of sexual pathologies: exophilia, an abnormal attraction for beings from worlds beyond earth.

Unlike other fetishes, whose objects may be difficult but not impossible to obtain, exophilia is a sexual desire for something that is literally not to be found on earth. The necrophile can rob a cemetery, the foot fetishist can steal shoes, but where is an alien sex fiend to find the objects of his desire? A basic inability to satisfy his fetish inspires sadism in Mercury de Sade, and though obsessed with extraterrestrials he is thus compelled to victimize a series of "ninfas" or young girls...

But can a human, however alluring, ever compensate for the fantastic sexuality to be expected of extraterrestrials? If aliens are more intelligent than man, then might they — must they — not be more sexually advanced than man too?

Written in a style that ranges from documentary to satire, Extraterrestrial Sex Fetish draws a portrait of sexual obsession through interrelated series of short texts — pornographic visions, narrative fragments, philosophical speculations, diary excerpts, parables, parodies, syllogisms, snippets of computer code — which may be read either in sequence or in various collage-like patterns.

#13 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Aliens Shmaliens - ...why not ask THE question?? » 2004-07-16 08:35:53

I suppose you could clumsily sue-hank together the "genomes" of two different extra-terrestial species, but you would probably end up with a ugly, confused and very depressed character from a Douglas Adams book.

An "fraternal" relations between aliens will most likely be limited to "I will touch your pleasure parts if you touch mine". That I see nothing wrong with. I actually foresee an entire industry devoted to video-taping this art. I'm pretty sure right now that, if I bothered, I could look up "alien fetish" on google and I would get something already.

#14 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Methane based life forms » 2004-07-16 08:31:57

Interestingly enough, the July 2004 issue of Scientific American talked about a http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID … 000]theory that during the first two *billion* years on earth, the atmosphere was primarily methane, with CO2 coming next. There was next to no oxygen. Slowly, oxygen-producing organisms took over and produced the atmosphere that we have today. The methane decomposed due to the presence of the reactive oxygen. Makes you wonder what sort of planet we would have if this didn't happen eh?

Also: methane was a significant greenhouse gas, so even though the sun was only 70% of its brightness in the past, it was much warmer here on earth. I find this very cool...or, uh hot.

#15 Re: Life support systems » Nutrition » 2004-07-16 08:10:17

peanuts/peanut butter fit into the legume category as well?

Pretty good stuff:

-lots of protein
-doesnt go bad
-won't float away in zero-G
-sticks to any other food (if you want the extreme luzury of two simultaneous flavours)

#16 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Idea: Give the ISS a hab AND an ERV - Kill three birds with one stone » 2004-07-14 23:34:03

I like it a lot. I've always wondered if it is possible to keep that huge external tank on all the way up until orbit (maybe with a little extra thrust and less cargo) to use it as a sort of orbital (assembly!?!??!) base.

One problem is: I doubt the shuttle is engineered to be up for longer than 2 weeks. This may create problems, it may not. For example, is the waste from, say, the toilet meant to be ejected into space or stored? Do certain air filters need to be removed on the ground instead of in space. What needs to be replaced regularily. If the shuttle does need new parts (I assume it would be made this way, with the weight of the parts being a very small factor) then the weight-cost of bringing those parts up to orbit may be very expensive so as to make the shuttle impractical.

This is definitely a kick-ass idea though. It would give the shuttles much more glory than just corroding in a garage somewhere.

#17 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Everything but the water » 2004-07-14 23:28:41

I am really curious what sort of minerals they are. It seems more convenient to leave minerals in then extracting them. Iron men and wooden ships....

#18 Re: Not So Free Chat » 7-11 - Guess what today is? » 2004-07-14 23:12:35

We could engineer bacteria that not only cover the poles in black "dust" to make them partially melt, but to also secrete a cherry flavour. As new pieces begin to break off, we will have ready-to-serve genuine martian slurpies. Flawless.

#19 Re: Not So Free Chat » 7-11 - Guess what today is? » 2004-07-12 15:33:30

We can only hope that the infrastructure on Mars will ever be established enough to have "planet-wide" free-slurpie days.

I wonder what CO2 ice would be like as a slurpy? Dangerous.

#20 Re: Human missions » A Night in the Hab - ...and your neighbor snores LOUDLY » 2004-07-12 15:13:32

Well the obvious answer is this: pre-screening. Have the potential astronauts sleep in the same room each night during basic training. They vote someone else out each night Survivor-style.

OR

Like many have suggested getting appendices removed to reduce the risk of appendicitis, etc....we should just clip the offender's nasal snore-producing-apparatus. No, I don't know how it's done, but I am ABSOLUTELY SURE it will work.

#22 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Asteroid Mining - profit from space » 2004-07-05 08:41:23

About the Plasma Steel process:

Is that similiar to the hydrocarbon-refining process where a hot gaseous heterogenous mixture is slowly cooled and different molecular weights come out (condense from gas to liquid). Except I assume in this case I assume the phase change is plasma to solid. I like it, provided huge amounts of energy are not wasted. It seems a lot of energy could be recovered, and the waste heat could keep your human habitat nice and cozy-warm.

Vive les asteroides!

#23 Re: Human missions » Another opinion of the Space elevator - Questioning the sanity of the Space Elev » 2004-07-04 14:26:53

Slighty off topic, but from the article:

"Current micrometeorite impacts on earth are in the millions every day. You can stretch a large plastic sheet outside, and over a month or so they will accumulate. Most of them have an iron content, about the size of a grain of sand, and are black. You can also use a magnet to collect them from the gutters on your home. Many can be found there. Micrometeorites are everywhere."

Does anyone know if this actually works or they have tried it? I think I want to try it myself.

On Phobos: In the Mars trilogy I believe they had the cable sort of wobble back and forth to avoid Phobos, so unless that causes fatigue I can't see that being a problem. If the cable gets too close though it could flex under the attraction to phobos or deimos, but I imagine that is pretty negligible at far enough distances. Bonus fact: In the Mars trilogy, the knowledge from the Martian space elevator helped build the ones on Earth...so there.

#24 Re: Human missions » Design wanted for Antarctic base - Mars colony? Anyone? » 2004-07-02 08:32:23

Wow imagine an ice hotel on Mars! Cool and low G's. Perfect honeymoon (if you don't mind a 2 years honeymoon that is).

Unfortunately, I think they want a building that lasts..all year for Antartica. Is there some Mars Society Director of Projects or something that is supposed to be in charge of this?

#25 Re: Planetary transportation » Plans for mobile base - on the moon... » 2004-06-29 23:09:23

There are so many ideas. I don't care - please just somebody do something!!!!!! I am particularily afraid when "authorities" such as NASA come down with random other ideas that seem to be off the main track, or haven't been thought of yet. I mean yes, the walking roves are intensely cool but could we not just get there or somewhere PLEASE? I demand infrastructure!!!!

Hmm off-topic ranting.

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