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#1 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-05-03 19:48:25

Please do look up the fact of gravity measurements and time distortions.
I do know of the dual atomic clock experiment aboard a jet and on the ground as relativistic time measurements, that has been done.

Quote:
Did I title my thread random facts?
I'm not sure, let me check.

Quote:

you are quoting time distortions on a plane compared to ground speed.
I believe that was your example

Nope, time distortion of gravity not relativity.

How do you know the mass quantity inside a black hole?
What are you measuring?
The effect on our universe to obtain the mass of a black hole that no information can escape from?
Are you measuring our universe effects or the black hole?
And no they are not one in the same thing.


Quote:
You mean you should be more clear.

Yes that is what i meant or more simplified.


Quote:
Your understanding is confused. Physics by analogy only takes you so far.

So you are saying that no matter how much you learn you can never understand anything?
Maybe its not me that is confused.

Quote:
An idea? That would imply some coherency to your writings. If you want to post off topic random thoughts create a tread called just that.

As compared to going to a black hole and using it as an energy source?
And my writings are incoherent.  hmmmmmm

Quote:
I have a reason. My reason is I don't like reading off topic nonsense.

True enough it is off topic.
Nonsense can only be decided by fact, not by stupidity.


Quote:
Ahh….You only wish I feel treated. If you want to be open to all ideas why don't you spend your days and nights reading astrology

This certainly doesn't make sense or is even in English.

Is that what you got your degree in?
I think its an ok hobby but having it as your career is not a wise choice.
I wouldn't recommend telling everyone you are an astrologist.

Sorry for messing up your bizarre idea of a gravity machine.
But you sir are what is called a concrete head.
No room for anything other than your own thoughts you have read somewhere.

Quote:  To many more stupid replies to answer.

#2 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-05-03 15:53:11

John,

To answer your question about using a black hole as an engineering drive.

If I'm correct gravity is the time dilation, and mass the amount of that dilation, a black hole being near infinite time/mass has no external properties and no waves traveling anywhere to harness.

In all aspects to us a black hole is its own time/space, only the effects of our time/space near a black hole can be harnessed.

Gravity assists will certainly work, but getting there more effort than the value of the assist.

#3 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-05-03 14:59:46

John Creighton,

I explained the moons difference in velocity to the earths.
Yes moon and earth have a different time due to different speeds in space.

Didn't ask if you asked about it, just pointed it out.

No one has detected a gravity time distortion, you are quoting time distortions on a plane compared to ground speed.

Usefulness of a sentence about time/space depends on the reader.
I put it in simple terms for easy understanding.
If that didn't make sense then i should have made it easier to understand.

You don't need to decide anything John.
All the universal questions are already answered arnt they ?
No need to even attempt to understand anything you don't like.

All i did was to try to point out that gravity might not act in the universe the way we would like it to.

No need to be rude, if you don't like the idea just say that.
But don't be a dork for no reason or because you don't like the idea without thought or it threatens your understanding.
That is the hallmark of a closed mind.

#6 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-05-03 10:10:40

John Creighton,

Take two twins one lives on earth one on the moon.

If i am correct about gravity being just a time distortion the person living on the moon will age a small amount more than the person living on earth due to the slightly larger time distortion on earth.

Even after explaining away the velocity time difference you should still have gravity time distortion difference left.
Two well tuned atomic clocks would prove this or disprove this.

Usefulness of the knowledge that gravity and voids might dictate relativity or just be part of relativity?
Probably some useful things could be discovered from that smile

This is one simple one to think about.

Relativity.... Mass moving towards C becomes infinite mass as you get closer to C.
Gravity ..... Mass moving towards C becomes infinite in time, no mass change only increasing time distortion as you get closer to C.

What makes more sense to you? mass appears from nowhere to increase infinitely?
Or time distortion just increases until time almost stops for an object making it appear to be infinite in mass?

With gravity the reason you can't go faster than C is that you cant compress time any further than the speed of C, C being just a measure of universal time.

You be the judge.

#7 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-05-03 04:27:09

John Creighton,

I had a pretty bent mind to begin with, so it was easy for me to bend it a little bit more smile

It does make some sense that if gravity is just time distortion then it need not violate any laws to influence anywhere instantly, when gravity  doesn't actually move or feel time.

At least its better than a seamless hole or ftl smile

#8 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-05-02 10:05:32

Marsdog,

Sorry missed this part.

I believe you are quoting the argument of pair particles communicating with each other anywhere in the universe?
faster than light or seamless hole argument?

Neither!
Gravity as the transmitter is neither faster than light or transmits any  information in a seamless hole.

Gravity being a time distortion onto itself is the medium that passes the info anywhere in the universe instantly to pair particles.
No broken general relativity laws here, or broken quantum mechanical laws.

Instantly because all gravity sources from atom to black hole are only a distortion of time and not a traveling medium.

Just my guess smile

#9 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-05-02 06:04:51

MarsDog,

Quote:
(Stealth aircraft is not a void because it absorbs radiation)

Just reflecting properties in a stealth aircraft, but i do understand the analogy you were trying to make.

Simple cause and effect wont work on either black hole or void, neither will transmit or reflect waves, so setting a causality from either will be impossible to define.

Quote:
Inside of a large black hole is where we may be living.
Gravity may be a property of space, not a particle which absorbs.


Yes we are living inside a black hole, and no we are not.
The universe can be in black hole state at one time and expansion or contraction at another time.
Defining if any state is other than just a state of a black hole is unclear.
The universe might just be a repeating black hole cycle activate by other repeating black hole cycles.
It might also only be a black hole universe only until a universal space/time collision starts an expansion, then we exist in an open universe until the collapse at another collision.

Gravity as a property of space, if it was a property of space then shouldn't the expansion happen differently?
Shouldn't an expansion be uniform and follow gravity evenly?

If gravity is a property of matter then the universe should expand clumpy as id does.
Even worse that clumping of mass might not even follow our own universe gravity if multiverse interference is possible.

Quote:

Black holes are not singularities since they have angular momentum,
Still connected to the universe, because spinning without reference is meaningless.
Radiation via particle pair creation and tunneling faster than the speed of light.
Energy from angular momentum transferred to surrounding gas.

A black hole has angular momentum just before its even horizon, all the matter flows down in an accelerating path towards the event horizon.
But why does it spin in one direction?
Does this show that the black hole itself is spinning?
If not how do we account for the spin of the matter in one direction?

Connection to the universe with a black hole is clear from looking at its effects from our space/time,  but inside one the connection is not so clear.
If a black hole is time so compressed as to be infinite then no true connection really exists to our space/time as the black hole is its own space/time.

Voids exist everywhere, just look at the mass in an atom and you will find 99.9% is a void with no properties.
Yet atoms still exist.

Not the best analogy to point out voids, but a good place to show they exist. smile

#10 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-30 18:31:01

MarsDog,

Does a similar transmission rule apply to black holes also?
If something can't transmit or react to waves is it non existent?

How can a black hole transmit waves in a state where any waves are absorbed by gravity, even light can't escape a black hole and it is suppose to be the fastest wave possible in the universe.?
Is gravity some special beast that we need to rewrite general relativity for, as gravity waves do escape a black hole, or do they?
If something can't transmit or react with a wave does it exist? exact reverse argument of a void.

If gravity is just a distortion then a black hole isn't really transmitting anything ,  a void should transmit just a  gravity distortion without really transmitting anything.
What properties does a time/space distortion have that couldn't be transmitted through a void or black hole?

Another solution is gravity might  be multi dimensional unaffected by the realms and laws of 3 dimensional space/time.

Something strange is happening with gravity and black holes without question, just no one has questioned why gravity is doing what it does at black holes.

#11 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-29 17:16:56

cIclops,

I concur, stand way back when creating a black hole smile


Marsdog,

If you did not have a void for the universe to expand into then it could not expand.
With some set of properties outside the universe the properties inside would be very different.

The void might simply be an area of space that each universe occupies when expanding and contracting.
No universe exists in the void between each universe as it is swept clean by each universe when it contracts.


Each universe bubble has a way to be detected.
Since gravity waves can escape a black hole it makes perfect sense that gravity can also travel past the voids.
Multiverse interference.

If we had a very precise way to measure gravity i bet we would be able to detect stronger readings in different regions of space, all pointing to the edge of our universe.
They would be detecting other universes influencing ours, and maybe just the reason our universe seems to be speeding up as we get closer to the boundary of other universes and gravity becomes stronger between each.


Difficult to say what properties a black hole truly has inside, at best guess it is just a lack of space with a lack of time going with that first property.
The exact opposite of a void.

Been down that road of trying to analyze what a void truly is many times.
I have also come to the conclusion that a void doesn't exist more than once.
If the voids don't exist then it always points me back to how does a universe get to be a black hole universe before the big bang in the first place if voids are non existent.

Without voids a crowding effect or bunching effect should occur over time with each universe slowly getting closer to its neighbor on each expansion.

You've hit on a point about cannibal universes i have wondered about for years.
Is it possible that universes can cannibalize each other like galaxies do?
Are the universe boundaries immovable and unable to merge due to each universes unique time/space, or is the boundary soft and time/space can merge.

A merging cannibal system makes it quite complex to make sense of any boundaries, but no reason exists that cannibal universes cant be the system.

The individual space/time for each universe not allowing mergers is cleaner and simpler, but no reason other than simple for this system.

My feeling is non merging individual space/time bubbles that bounce off each other.
This  makes it simple to explain how a universe in black hole state can start it's expansion, and how the contraction can happen in a universe when collisions take place.

Fun to think about nothing isn't it? smile

#12 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-29 05:05:56

MarsDog,

The void can be meaningless and yet mean everything.
Just because it doesn't have properties doesn't mean it doesn't have effect.
The property of the void is the area it occupies, without a void taking up volume the universe couldn't expand.

Two universes or time/space bubbles running into each other is probably how universes start and collapse, but what is the medium they flow through to get to each other?

A black hole has no properties inside either but also has an effect on its region of space and maybe all of space.

Both void and black hole are interference and distortion, and both have an effect on time/space.

A black hole is simple to determine what effect it has.
A void not so simple to determine how it effects everything beyond the boundary.

Is our universe just 1 time bubble moving towards imminent collision with surrounding time bubbles in different states flowing through the voids created by the matrix of the multiverse.

Those old science fiction shows might not be so wrong with parallel universes as the multiverse universes would go on forever.
Don't expect to go visit another universe though, since to get to another universe you must travel through void space with no time.

#13 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-28 17:02:50

MarsDog,

The void has no properties at all.
Just space without matter or energy or time.
A very bizarre place to think about that occupies volume but consists of nothing.

If we are the only universe that exists then the void exists beyond its edge.
If we live in a black hole (the entire universe as black hole) then the void is just outside that.
If we live in a multiverse then the void is between universes.

If the void had any properties it would eventually form a universe of its own and crowd the existing ones, causing the life of all  universes to decrease on each expansion and contraction.

Since we have no clue how many times our universe has collapsed and expanded we can expect that number to be infinite.

If void space was here forever and had any properties then it also would be full of universes, so void space must also be constantly void forever.

Void space must be the property of the multiverse, just the empty space between universes that only becomes part of a universe as it expands to the void.

The properties or non properties of void space and trying to apply any math to it is very frustrating and difficult to grasp how it can exist without effecting each universe.

If steven is correct about the memory of matter then why cant anyone get any info on the last collapse of this universe that happened  before the big bang and expansion this time?
It was all in one big black hole, but nothing came forward about the previous state with it.

I've yet to see any mysterious beer cans fly past me, well maybe when i was 18. smile

#14 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-28 06:18:06

MarsDog,

Very interesting link on string theory.

It touches on the puzzle that always leaves me scratching my head, not so much are we in a big black hole or how black holes act.
But the void between universe membranes or black hole membranes if we exist in a black hole.

This is the place that always leaves me puzzled for an explanation and has for 30 years.
The void between universes has no space and time and no matter yet occupies area.

No matter how i try to approach the problem it always leads back to a stumbling block, and lots of headaches trying to figure out a way it can exist in area and yet not be there.

(Just is) so far is my best solution.
Who would have thought that the most interesting thing to study is nothing. smile

#15 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-28 05:11:27

cIclops,

If we could get a few suns together i bet it would be a devastating event for the local area to create a black hole.
I bet it wouldn't be a seamless transition to a black hole.

#16 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-28 05:07:27

MarsDog,

In my opinion the event horizon is the zone where time begins its compression.
When you enter the event horizon feet first things are very bad for you as your feet are in a different time perspective than your head.
The spagetifigation of an object is not only caused by the gravitational effects but the time distortion effects also.

If you could survive beyond the event horizon to look up you would see nothing strange outside the black hole other than things moving faster outside, but inside the black hole time itself would have nearly stopped.

This is the reason black holes don't compress forever or blow up.

Living virtually forever in a black hole is possible, but you would still live a normal life span, it would just take multiple billions of years to make it to 75.

The singularity i don't believe really exists, just an explanation for a point that science has trouble defining. (math breaks down)

If we are outside the black hole watching an object fall in, then we see nothing special, the object falls into and disappears at normal accelerating speeds.

Still very difficult to try and explain how gravity escapees the unescapable point in a black hole.

I believe that all gravity waves are just a distortion of regular time/space and not true waves.
Then no universal laws need to be bent.
But the dimensional gravity is also appealing. smile

Space without matter and Matter without space are the two places i try to wrap my mind around most of all.
Both are difficult places to try and understand.

#17 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-27 05:16:17

To create a black hole you would need to alter a region of space/time.
If you can do that it makes sense that you could alter the space/time around a space ship in a more efficient way to travel.

I don't believe creating a black hole is just a matter of pumping in vast quantities of energy.
A black hole in all sense is simply a region of space that has no space.
A location that has compressed matter so far as to contain no space but all time.

If current black hole theory is followed then black holes should not exist in our universe at all, the collapse of a black hole should continue until they wink out of existence or blow up as they attempt to compress below a certain size where gravity can longer exert a gravitational force, not stop at some imaginary point still in our universe.

black holes are also a theoretical problem onto themselves as they emit gravity waves past a point of singularity.
This emanation of gravity waves itself is a problem in trying to explain the inner working of a black hole as nothing can escape a singularity, but gravity waves do.

Do gravity waves have an ability to escape the singularity because they
are not true waves but simply a distortion of regular space time?

Or do gravity waves escape the singularity because they are dimensional, they simply escape from a different dimension into ours?

Or do gravity waves poses no mass or energy that can be pulled on from the singularity?

Or do gravity waves travel faster than C allowing them to escape the singularity?

Or are gravity waves instantaneous, felt everywhere all across the universe to some degree, everything connected with them all across the universe.?

One of the above must be true.

Why does a black hole not wink out of our universe?
The time in compressed space is also near infinite, as the black hole compresses so does the time inside a black hole.

just my thoughts on the workings of a black hole.

If you are going to create one please answer the gravity wave problem with them, would love a definitive answer. smile

#18 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-26 16:30:43

MarsDog,

Maybe you just need to know the frequency to rub at, and what to rub with what.
Then the free lunch genie I'm sure will appear and we will all see the light.
As with most free lunches though they seldom are free or even happen at lunchtime.

#19 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-26 16:10:12

MarsDog,

I couldn't see your image sad

I was looking forward to hoover in space also smile

#20 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-26 16:07:23

MarsDog,

I guess if you could control the black hole that you created you could use it to pull atoms out of space and eject them behind you at C.

The only energy costs would be in creating and controlling the black hole, and aiming it forward to collect trace atoms in space for acceleration past the black hole.

I can think of a few hurdles here, but i bet they are all obvious smile

If technology gets to the point of creating black holes i bet they will be used to alter dimensions to go places rather than to try and accelerate the meager amounts of matter in interstellar space in this dimension.

In my opinion dimensional travel is the way star travel will happen in the future.
Conventional ways to traverse the stellar distances are just to energy costly, time consuming and daunting technically.

#21 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-26 14:31:01

GCNRevenger,

If we could only make black holes that last a few millions of a second just in front of the space craft then we could travel at any speed we desired.
The pull towards the space craft would be C/mass spacecraft on any black hole creation.

Other than the obvious problems of the black hole destroying the machine that makes them each time one is made, and the problem of creating one in the first place, and the problem of a black hole pulling more on the front of the space craft than on the back.

Guess as soon as someone creates a black hole, the next creation should be an anti black hole to control the black hole. smile

#22 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Black Hole Drives » 2006-04-26 05:44:43

Probably more useful to try and bend time/space in front of a spacecraft with a mini black hole than to use it as a power source.

A short black hole distortion directly in front of a moving craft might be the answer to interstellar travel, you only need a very short time/space distortion to travel to anywhere in the universe.

Black holes as a power source as with any other man made object  will be more expensive to make than the energy it releases.

#23 Re: Terraformation » Retrograde moons... » 2006-04-14 04:30:55

karov,

The sublimation of co2 from the poles in the summer is the reason i don't think the poles are mostly h20.

The scouring effect of the co2 sublimation should be carrying quantities of h20 all over mars, even if these quantities are small each season the pole should be shrinking if its mostly h20, as deposits of frost settle in areas other than the poles.

No easy to explain mechanism exists to get that frost back to the poles once it makes it to the surface.

Most of mars stays below the freeze point of water all year so whatever is deposited should stay for long periods and just co2 should return to the poles.


Interesting though that in 2004 images of water ice clouds were taken at mars, i didn't know about it.
I didn't even think water ice cloud formation was possible in the rarified Martian atmosphere so some mechanisms can exist i hadn't expected.
Will have to give that some thought on how water ice frost can return to the poles.

The out gassing of mars.
I have to agree 100% on that.
With the energy quantities needed for a Martian teraform its looking like impacts are the only realistic way to attempt a teraform.
How big and what composition and how fast are the questions for the impactors.

#24 Re: Terraformation » Retrograde moons... » 2006-04-13 05:25:06

karov,

If the lowlands of mars is dust and water ice how did the polar water ice form in its current configuration.

As soon as the bar pressure is low enough for no clouds how do we get a substantial deposit of water ice on just the poles.

Either the pole ice shouldn't be in its quantity or the lowlands shouldn't have water ice.

That is why i think the poles are co2 covered in thin h20.
If it is h20 ice on the poles of mars its a riddle as to how they formed, and why mars doesn't have polar ice from pole to much lower latitudes in a thinner layer.

With co2 we can form pole ice on mars in its current configuration, then as the bar pressure drops a thin layer of water ice and permafrost everywhere until the bar pressure is to low for the transport of h20.

I'm not saying the poles at mars are mostly co2, but it fits a logical path to how they could form.
Another mechanism might explain them beautifully with h20 ice, but i cant figure out how. smile


The high speed impactor, just toying with the idea of heating both outside and inside at once.
Not sure any impact will be fast enough for that though.

The idea of drilling into mars and exploding a mega bomb.
It has its charm, but the machine to get deep into mars wouldn't be a simple one, more like a driller swimmer, but a self contained unit that carries its bomb with it shouldn't be a difficult build.

I also think the bomb would have to be such an enormous yield to do anything useful that its probably unrealistic, on the other hand you could make them on mars and make as many as you like.

#25 Re: Terraformation » Retrograde moons... » 2006-04-12 06:21:15

MarsDog,

When you make the monster h bomb you could use some real nasty elements we would never think of using that create awful radiation in the middle of mars.

May as well add as much heat and radiation for as long a period as possible if its contained inside mars.

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