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#1 Re: Other space advocacy organizations » The New MarsDrive » 2015-08-08 08:29:02

Marsdrive did lose the domain through changes made to reregistration but we are coming back with 2 new sites under construction now. One is a simple visual marketing type site with marsdrive.net but our main site will be coming back soon at marsdrive.org

As always we are growing and active on Facebook and Google +. Stay tuned for more updates. Our mission design group has restarted also.

#2 Re: Meta New Mars » Newmars Users » 2012-10-30 18:26:02

There are currently 6 main Mars groups (and their chapters) that are working towards trying to get humans on Mars asap. They are:

1. The Mars Society: Started in 1998, The first and largest, but with Zubrinholding fast to Mars Direct and a big focus on trying to get government funding for it, they have lost their appeal over the years and although they do discuss private alternative ways to Mars, most of their leadership do not believe in their hearts that private ways are THE way, so they tend to stick with government lobbying route, and most members feel rather powerless waiting around for something that will never come.
2. MarsDrive:Started in 2005 from out of the Red Colony forums and growing into a worldwide group working on mission designs and alternative funding plans, have presented at conferences and are constantly evolving and changing as new political, social, technological or financial developments happen. We have a clear path forward now.
3. The Mars Foundation: Started in 2005 out of the Mars Society, and with a big focus on settlement designs. From what I can see they don't have a big outreach push going on and are closer to being an academic group.
4. Explore Mars: Started in late 2010/early 2011, were a big offshoot from the Mars Society and their leader is Chris Carberry who was formerly the Executive Director of the Mars Society U.S. Obviously it was a falling out over methods and ways to reach their goals, although this group still reflects the old Mars Society line of hoping in government funded missions "way in the future" sometime. Good outreach ability, but they still miss the point- People want to feel like they are a part of something meaningful and real, not just sitting around waiting on government funded missions to appear. Lot's of potential here, but not realizing it yet.
5. The Mars Initiative: Started in mid 2011 as an idea from a frustrated Mars Society member, to set up a simple transparent fund to literally fund the first human mission to Mars. They have so far raised $1600 towards that goal, and I have helped as an advisor where I could. They feel that online outreach will get them to their goal but I feel they are missing real world aspects and need much more substance before people will trust them with millions or billions in donations. MarsDrive is a partner group with them.
6. Mars One: Started mid 2011 from a frustrated ex Mars Society member in the Netherlands, as a private company but have now become a non profit. They plan to send humans one way to Mars in 11 years time but when you peer through the smoke and mirrors, their substance is thin, and they are lacking in resources although have done well with online outreach so far. Many legal, technical and financial issues remain unclear which is their weakness at this time. They only reveal these details to potential sponsors, but what they fail to realize is that potential sponsors can come from anywhere, so locking out the general public is hurting their push forward.

As you can see, these groups all have their issues and challenges, all of them (including mine), struggle with lack of funds and volunteers and all think that their way is the best. The Mars Society was once looked at as the main group to do this, but after 15 years of habs and more habs, members are leaving, leaders are leaving and some very talented people as well. All of us have problems of public perception, after all, how can any small group like this expect to rival NASA and send humans to Mars? It seems unbelieveable.

But there are many talented, qualified and expert people in all of these groups, and often they have advisory boards who have had real experience with NASA missions such as Buzz Aldrin, Don Rapp and others. I don't think we lack the people or contacts to get to our goals, what I think is that the academic types who run the main groups are so strong minded that we must accept only government funded "official" ways to Mars or that science must be the main focus that they don't realize that most average members are frustrated and want to see action, not words. They want to also know that they might also have a chance one day to go to Mars, and government missions don't allow for that.

They are fairly divided and secretive because they are trying to convey the impression that they have what it takes to get their goals, but year after year of nothing kind of trumps all the smoke and mirrors stuff anyway. We can't explain away our lack of real progress. So people lose interest. That is why MarsDrive and myself are so engaging and I do come to forums etc. I want to know what the people think and engage with them. We all share the same dream after all. The leaders of these other groups need to stop being so aloof and do the same. If they want powerful growing member bases, they need to get real, get engaged and work on alterntive ways to Mars than government funding. This forum here is a small reflection on the dysfunctional nature of Mars groups, but it can improve if we work together more instead of all pulling in opposite directions. In the end, the above 6 groups are the only real people concerned with sending humans to Mars, so it's time we banded together for real and made some progress.

#3 Re: Meta New Mars » Newmars Users » 2012-10-29 19:13:13

bobunf wrote:

One thing that I think would help regain that trust is disclosure.  Who's running the site?  How does it get paid for?  How are people and data backed up?  Who do we contact for information if the site is down?  And how?  What about fail safes? e.g., another website to go for information and commiseration if New Mars is down.  Maybe with some duplicated discussions. In the meantime, I'm just hoping the site stays up.  Some assurance (which requires some openness) on that score would be very helpful.

At least for MarsDrive forums I can answer those questions: Our website administrator and UK Director Darren Oliviero Priestnall runs the site on secure U.S based cloud servers with multiple security layers (as we too were hacked and brought down 3 years ago). Our member donations help pay for the site (or myself if all else fails). You can contact me at frank.stratford@marsdrive.com if anything is wrong. Or I am on facebook quite a bit. We have at least 3 back up databases to secure our posts and if all else fails we have a facebook group and page anyway. We do duplicate some discussions from here from time to time as one of our major posters/members is spacenut who is also a mod here. We have close to 2000 posts by over 400 members but just like NewMars, even though our period offline was only 2 months, it got rid of 3,000 older posts (so we should have closer to 5000). New Mars is much more comprehensive, but it's hard to find stuff here and 3 years is still missing (and those were some good years).

The reality is, Mars groups everywhere need more support, but it seems people just don't think we are serious enough or able enough to carry out our grand goals, an area we are constantly working to change.

#4 Re: Meta New Mars » Newmars Users » 2012-10-28 15:38:19

And the scarcity of responses and time between responses proves my point. This forum has alot of great information, but if it can't be found easily then what is the point when so many stronger rival sites exist now like facebook? Activity in those places is much higher than here, I can see that.

#5 Re: Meta New Mars » Newmars Users » 2012-10-17 23:50:44

Here is a great post in an other forum about what I just said: http://www.forumpostersunion.com/showthread.php?p=80277

#6 Re: Meta New Mars » Newmars Users » 2012-10-17 23:36:21

"All forums seem to have taken a hit to Facebook and Twitter who have cost us dear"

I think what he means Rob is that this forum has some big problems in popularity now and is likely not to come back as it was.

Think about it- we started when Facebook and Twitter were nothing. Social networking was nothing. The internet itself was still quite basic. In 2012, this forum, after the serious rise of all these other (much more popular) discussion outlets is the last bastion of a few die hard technicals and academic sorts. What is the purpose of forums when we have sites like MoonMars.com ( http://moonmars.com/news )giving us dedicated facebook type places to talk and store documents and collaborate with experts across many space groups?

Then you have a 2 year wipe out and forum down right when all these other places are evolving DAILY. There are some great ideas and discussions here but the information is very hard to sort through and find, and alot is lost. So in light of all this competition, what is the way forward here? Is there a point of difference here? Something we can't do on Facebook or elsewhere? I have my own forum at MarsDrive and we have the same issues. The reality is it's time to move on guys. Sort the archive into a usable resource I say, and store it over at MoonMars where it can help in the drive to settle Mars and we all work together.

What do you think?

#7 Re: Human missions » Mars revenue raising activity. » 2012-10-04 06:25:47

Im only talking about funding the mission, not them going personally. (Although they are welcome to :-) ) The least someone can do is give it a try.

#8 Re: Human missions » Mars revenue raising activity. » 2012-10-03 04:43:11

Billionaires are indeed very smart, but also very focused people. I often speak to quite wealthy people and you would be surprised how wrapped up in their own world they are. They are generally specialists in their fields too. The reality remains that as far as I know, no professional or believable case has been presented to them on how they might be involved. I have no doubt that there are some billionaires who likely would fund humans to Mars not for profit, but for history, glory and their legacy. It's not always about money you know.

#10 Re: Meta New Mars » The great crash » 2012-10-01 21:50:58

How is the progress on recovering the files guys?

#11 Re: Human missions » Mars revenue raising activity. » 2012-10-01 21:49:47

"But here’s the main point: If this type of stuff were so profitable, why has no nation, corporation or billionaire latched onto these jackpots?  It’s been 40 years since the last manned Moon landing and 36 since the last Soviet sample return mission. It can be done, why hasn’t it been done FOR PROFIT by any of thousands of entities in the last four decades and into the foreseeable future?"

Exactly right bob. That's why MarsDrive has been working at a very different funding plan than one based on these "gimmicks" which as you say clearly do not attract anyone. I do believe they have some value, but probably far less than anyone thinks, and the reality is no Mars group has approached any billionaires with a professional and believable "case for Mars". Our plan is commercial IP, so if you want to see it, please email me first.

#12 Human missions » MarsDrive Designs » 2012-09-15 18:44:33

Marsman
Replies: 1

One of the tasks MarsDrive is engaged in is human mission design for Mars, and recently we have been working on two different designs to merge them together. One is titled "Ready For Mars" and has way too many launches (on a launch vehicle not yet built), while MP4Z is based closer to Falcon Heavy with less launches. The link to the page for these designs is here: http://www.marsdrive.com/Projects/MissionDesign

I'd be happy to have some discussions and ideas proposed if anyone is interested, and we have a new dedicated group on a space dedicated social networking site call Moonmars ( http://moonmars.com/group/marsdrive ) where this design work can flourish better and it has many other groups there also about space settlement, and getting humans to Mars is a big part of that. We were also discussing EDL ideas (Entry, Descent Landing) which revolved around using the smallest possible landers for humans (around 7-8t) and new technologies like hypercones or different shapes etc.

We do want to publish this merged design in the near future, but as a team effort, this is something you can participate in. MarsDrive has already published one peer reviewed design in 2006 called Mars For Less, and a fairly thorough design called "MarsDrive DRM 2.5". I'd be interested to hear your feedback on this anyway, and if you want to participate, feel free to.

Also, in a major change, MarsDrive has adopted a roadmap of steps we are taking to reach our goals, and you can find that here: http://www.marsdrive.com/About/Mission

We are now as part of that program fully supporting groups including the Mars Society with their analogue hab programs as an extra source of fundraising (along with many other steps and areas).

#13 Re: Human missions » Mars revenue raising activity. » 2012-07-23 20:45:51

Great ideas Louis and Twinbeam smile I'm always a fan of these, and have developed similar for the MarsDrive planning. Some issues to think about though. It has been said that investors (private) will want serious ROI in short time, and because there is so much SPF (Single Point Failures) risk in this program, that's what puts them off. It's not like starting a business and off you go. Not at all. It rests on explosive rockets and dangerous space environments and unknowns all along the path. How to make a program that is sustainable even in the face of disasters, that is the real issue to overcome. One idea for this can be cheap space access vehicles to be used, as these will bring costs down to a point where even with failures, profits can be easy enough to produce.

#14 Re: Human missions » Mars One » 2012-07-23 20:36:08

Just want to know what you guys think of one way missions and what issues you see from a technical standpoint. I'm surprised there hasn't been more response to this given the massive worldwide media attention this plan has got (more than all Mars groups combined PR power). In short- the first time the common man really hears about a Mars mission, it is this plan. What are your thoughts and issues?

#15 Re: Meta New Mars » Increasing use » 2012-03-14 16:37:54

The facebook site is open to everyone Louis- http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/4184149761/  It's listed as "public", and that's all it allows. Facebook is the place to be now for outreach and I must say we have had much more activity and responses there than any of our other sites or groups by far. As to the name "MarsDrive" it was meant to convey "the drive to reach Mars", a forward looking, driving force behind key steps to get humans on Mars. We do have a very specific focus now- getting that first human mission to Mars, and we have closed in on two final designs we are working with to merge together. Plans for colonies, terraforming and advanced transportation ideas are welcome there but as they are not our focus, it might seem they get ignored at times.

But we are not about trying to cover every possible aspect of life on Mars like The Mars Society, because we believe and know that that first human mission is STILL the hardest step and should not be assumed that it is just going to "happen" one day. TMS and RC have such a broad focus and that's fine, but ours is honed in on that area. The only other area we do add some focus to is cheap space access ideas because obviously if spaceflight is cheap, so will colonization of Mars be etc. As to Elon Musk, he will provide the hardware for the mission but he won't be paying for it. I'm sorry if it comes across as we are unreceptive to new ideas, because I for one can say that quite the opposite is true.

We are always entertaining new ideas and thoughts. But one thing we do ask is that if people have new ideas, that they follow them through and take the lead themselves as we are a volunteer organization. Just throwing an idea at us but then expecting us to take it up is irresponsible and unrealistic given our direction, structure and focus. The same would apply to TMS and other Mars groups. I know when people come in and propose their "grand colonization plan" and get ignored it frustrates them and perhaps makes them think twice about staying with us, but all I can say is this- we have a website, our vision and mission are clear enough and we even have a mission design group that is active offsite. If you join us without reading through those materials or you don't want to send us an email asking us anything specific, how can we help you? One of my pet peeves with all space groups is when people barge in from the outside with new ideas etc but they won't commit their own time or money or resources to pursuing that idea themselves. Trust me, we are not short on ideas. What all space groups are short on is money and human resources.

So as to purpose, look at it this way:

The Mars Society: Human Mars programs (in general), funded by NASA (as a general strategy) and research projects here on Earth
The Mars Institute: Small scale outpost R&D projects
The Mars Foundation: Phase 2 Settlement Plans
MarsDrive: First Mission (private) & Cheap Space Access
The Mars Initiative: Funding Ideas and public fundraising for first mission

If you are focused on colony stuff, there are plenty of people and groups you can join for that. But if you want us to focus on that first giant leap, MarsDrive is the place to be. We have a focus, we even have a design, and the business case is being built. And we are always open to new thoughts and ideas, as long as those are given in the understanding that if they don't fit our focus we may not jump on it immediately smile

#16 Re: Meta New Mars » Increasing use » 2012-03-01 19:43:57

I do remember talking about this subject long ago but no one really responded, I guess because I'm viewed as from a "rival" group. But look, we are all in this together. Mars is in our hearts and we all want to see it happen. To give you some background, and understanding, MarsDrive has often been called a "virtual" group, and that's ok (though not totally accurate). As such, our experience is in this area.

My own history was that I started as an admin at Red Colony forums but their admins left and the spam took over so I shut it down sadly. They had a forum that was active with hundreds of members and thousands of posts. (3 times more than Marsdrive). Luckily MarsDrive had a forum so we continued on, but we also got attacked a few years back and after painstakingly building our posts to some 3000+ and members, we lost it all in an attack. We were offline for only 3 months but for a small group it almost killed us off totally. It was hard to come back, and we never quite did, but when we did I ensured we were secure and all backed up.

New Mars is much bigger though. And the time away was 3 times as bad as us. And you have lost 3 years of records and still have an unreliable login system etc. What built this place and all those elements are no longer here. The other point is, Facebook is the future of these types of discussions. Forums allow for more in depth stuff, but Facebook is where most people are at now. Most Marsdrive stuff goes on there now too. Unless you get all those elements back in place, and the lost posts (and 3 years of lost stuff in this place is bad), it's not going to come back guys. I hope it does, but I think people have moved on.

#17 Re: Meta New Mars » The great crash » 2012-03-01 19:13:09

It's not the end guys, this data can be recovered : http://www.recovermyfiles.com/

#18 Re: Human missions » CRATS to Mars » 2011-12-04 16:39:02

Thanks for the responses guys. Well, just ideas thrown out there anyway. One thought I had was what if we could do a "Unified Combination" of technologies/systems- perhaps with BDB- A redesign which might allow a mid air launch and horizontal/vertical landing? Sort of a cross between Virgin Galactic's model and Blue Origin model but with nanotech engine materials and fuels to radically enhance strength, efficiency and safety ratings? What I see from SpaceX and these other companies is a good start, but they still don't come close to cracking this problem of CRATS.

We need to focus on small scale tests on all components and materials and fuels in the range of thousands of tests, something these companies and others cannot do. One idea I came across: http://www.microlaunchers.com/ and there are others like JP Aerospace, Sea Launch, etc. Only with mass scale tests will we crack this challenge. An investment consortium would more likely invest in that kind of project which has far reaching applications versus a mission to Mars.

If a mission to Mars cost $100 Million in total, there would be no problem creating a profit/business case. How can we do this?

#19 Human missions » CRATS to Mars » 2011-11-28 23:56:04

Marsman
Replies: 13

CRATS= Cheap Reliable Access To Space. (not to be confused with the NASA COTS program)

For a commercial/private funding way to send humans to Mars, the obvious answer in how to make it possible, how to make a profit is to have the mission at such a low cost that a profit can be made.

So I was doing some thinking about launch vehicles. It seems that of the 2 or 3 ways to currently create propulsion, all have limits of fuel quantity or energy sources that make the vehicle so massive, complex and costly that this challenge has never been cracked.

But what if we can remove the energy source in a rocket (electric/plasma propulsion) so that it can actually be used as a launch vehicle? Yes, the power required would be massive. But what if we could wirelessly project/beam the power into the space craft to create super thrusting electric propulsion? http://www.witricity.com/pages/application.html

Instead of needing a nuclear or fusion power plant inside the vehicle, we can have it on earth and direct the power into the craft? And what if the vehicle was already high in the atmosphere via piggy back on a jetliner or balloon when it launched?

Are there other ways to do this? What if a new super light, super strong material and reliable computer aided machining techniques could create materials and reliability robust enough to be used hundreds of times, making rockets 100% safe and efficient? Perhaps nanomaterials? Maybe more efficient mixtures of rocket fuels can be used? ALICE for example http://www.gizmag.com/nasa-eco-friendly … uel/12593/

I think a mixture approach, if used correctly, and applied to all aspects of current space launch vehicles from the smallest parts to the way it propels itself can crack this problem.

There are many myths in the CRATS area of thinking, one of which is "it will take tens of billions and decades, and possibly is against the laws of physics". We Mars advocates have heard this type of thing many time in regards to Mars missions for humans too. I believe that with small scale tests on key materials and technologies, with demonstrations, proof of concepts and critical design process, we can build a launch vehicle that will achieve CRATS in our time.

Once that happens, we can get to mars very fast, and stay there!

Waiting on NASA or governments to go to Mars is not a dream. It is an annoying, frustrating wait for what may never be, and in the end is not going to ensure a settlement of Mars or anywhere else. The private sector can get business plans to get us to Mars, as long as the vehicles are cheap enough. I know for example that The Mars Society wants humans on Mars, but I hear very little about a sustainable presence or how to make that realistic or affordable. Government paid current methods won't do it. CRATS can be achieved in 10 years from 2011. With some out of the box thinking, strategically applied. This can be done. Then Mars can be reached within 5 years or sooner.

#20 Re: Meta New Mars » Rebirth of New Mars; Establishment of New Mars Editorial Board » 2011-11-24 01:28:08

Good to see the forums back up guys smile

I just want to clarify a couple of things too. First, the Newmars forums have a depth of discussion and detail and a large list of members they have built up over the last 10 years. But beyond the discussions I am sure there are many members here who hope the Mars Society might adopt some of the ideas here. I wonder if this has ever happened or what role the Mars Society views this forum as useful for? Many here are not paying members of the Mars Society, but just consider the time they have devoted here. If we translated that into monetry terms, this would far outweigh any cash donation.

My hope us that this forum does find a useful purpose beyond discussions but I guess we will wait and see on that. In regards to the MarsDrive site and forum, we did serve as a temporary home for many lost members here for the last year so I hope you guys don't forget about us smile

We currently have about 320 active members and a couple dozen more regular posters so we have built up over the last few years. We do allow political discussions, and I think that is due to where we are at right now. If we were larger and found it a big problem we might make the same choice as New Mars. But discussions are open and there are no membership fees are needed. Our focus is also slightly different, more on searching for private sector alternative plans for Mars. So don't forget us guys, and I'll keep an eye on how things go here. Overall I think the rebirth of this forum is a good thing for the cause. smile

#21 Re: Human missions » Problems with Humans on Mars » 2008-04-30 20:30:45

I will be appearing on The Space Show myself on May 23rd so I need
to be careful what I say here but the first question which pops up
with Dennis is "Is there any political or career biased opinions in
there?" He gets paid by NASA and so far their message on human Mars
programs has been a fairly uniform 20 to 30 years away sort of talk.
I agree with his points about technical problems but to me those
don't seem to be the real problem for humans to Mars. Lack of
political will is the problem. If people wanted to go to Mars they
would commit to doing so and even if took 100 years they would work
through the problems until it happened. Unfortunately this is simply
not the case. Sometimes research is done, most times it isn't. Until
there is a firm committment by someone to go to Mars we will
continue to have to rely upon the odd study done here and there,
lots of opinions and circular reasoning as usual.

These problems, real or not, can be overcome given enough time,
research and dollars. We are not trying to invent time travel here.
Humans went to the Moon did they not? They dealt with dust and
radiation there, did they not? Humans have lived in microgravity for
extended periods have they not? Humans have survived microgravity
have they not? Humans even live in space for extended periods and
I'm sure there are systems on the ISS that have lasted more than 3
years, proving that at least some technologies can last the
distance.

Mars enthusiasts often get accused of "ignoring the issues" or
downplaying their importance but I can't agree with that. Everywhere
I go in the Mars community ALL of these problems(and more) are being
discussed in depth. Some are even working on solutions such as the
human factors studies that the Mars Society conducts at their
analogue stations, the studies of the Mars Institute, Mars Foundation or our own mission design studies.

As to his comments on waiting for terraforming before humans go- Add
1000 years or more. Plus does he understand the economics of this?
Terraforming is not a process that can be 100% robotic either. There
will need to be at least some humans living there to work it.
Ultimately, we either go to Mars or we don't. No one is denying the
problems here. What we are saying is let's work on finding solutions
to those problems, something NASA, despite their great achievements
to date, are not always doing.

#22 Re: Human missions » Marsdrive Mission Design » 2007-09-02 20:29:51

I'm not sure if I have posted this here yet but in our new human mission design project we have going and our project site, we have opened a new yahoo groups discussion forum as neutral place for interested people to input without necessarily joining the design team and so you can get a feel for what we are doing with this design. Currently we have 10 in our team and are lead by Ron Cordes a retired Apollo engineer with extensive aerospace experience and we are looking for help in the many different areas this design has. You can find the new discussion group here- http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/marsdrivemission/

Or if you would like to help us in other ways (or have any questions)let us know at info@marsdrive.com

#24 Re: Other space advocacy organizations » NASA clarifies the role of other advocacy organizations » 2007-07-25 23:45:44

Put bluntly, they want to exercise the inherent authority of government to decide what is being done with the money which is available for science at NASA, but without having to come to Washington, put on a NASA badge, make all the associated sacrifices, and live with the consequences of their decisions

So why do space advocate groups keep on trying to pressure NASA to do their bidding when it is clear that NASA does what NASA wants, NOT what they want? What is the point of having a space advocate group spend all its money and resources on small scale "go nowhere" projects only to have it rejected by NASA 99% of the time? It seems to me that it would be far more useful to direct the energies of the NGO space sector into directly and aggressively supporting new private space efforts. For example, Burt Rutan, JP Aerospace and Armadillo have all made varying levels of progress due to a healthy mix of volunteers and paid workers. I think this is a far better model for doing things than continually banging our heads against the brick wall of NASA only.

#25 Re: Human missions » Human Missions and Public Support » 2007-05-11 19:13:27

Most movies/games and such usually get funded by production companies or the financing is organized through traditional sources in those sectors, so its not a matter of the space community even raising all the funds for such things. What we need funds for is to hire the professionals who can successfully pitch our ideas/stories etc to the entertainment sector much like evryone else does. I have come across many highly intelligent and highly creative space advocates like yourself Fledi with great ideas like a game or a book or a movie but unforunately their idea never gets to happen due to lack of what I would call human resources even more than funding. People are the key to success in public outreach and obviously the more professional your people are the better chances you will have of getting your ideas across or published.

On a side note, I looked up the You Tube Space Week Discovery promos and related Mars/Space videos there and it is dissapointing to see the low number of views compared with other non space videos. Some of them have views numbering in the millions, at last count the Space Week promo was around 200 or so. The best ranked video I found was one for the Mars rover Spirit at about 30,000 views. This is part of why our own You Tube project will not be released until we have the resources to do it right and make it interesting to the wider non space public. So no, we don't need millionaires and it really just comes down to people using their skills and abilities to make public outreach from the space community more effective.

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