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#1 Re: Terraformation » Our Future World(s) - Just a little terraforming fantasy » 2005-10-26 17:41:07

While Earthlings and Venusians can visit Mars rather easily with a week or two of low gravity training, native Martians can only visit Earth or Venus after a long period (a year or more) of 1G training, exercising, and drugs.

Nice imagination overall, enjoyed that.

However you are making a technology mistake, why bother with the gravity training when they could just wear a powered exoskeleton that makes walking on Earth or Venus feel like Martian gravity ?
Hell, in the year 6500 such devices will probably be cheap and common place adjustable to suit varying gravity levels, weights, etc. Such technologies arn't even that far off in the year 2005.

Also, if Space elevators end up being viable for Earth and to some extent Venus and Mars, I think there would be a massive exodus off of Earth. Imagine everything from ghost countries to cities to towns, forest reclaiming their lost lands, wildlife stalking their way through the ruins of Earth dead cities.

Venus, given its more Earth-like gravity, warm weather would probably end up being the #1 destination in the end.

#2 Re: Human missions » Mission One: a one way ticket to Mars? » 2005-08-10 04:37:13

-A mobile machine to extract water from martian regolith

Why not land near a known source of water ice (or an underground deposit if Mars Express finds them), such as in that crater closer to the poles. If underground ice or liquid water deposits are found they could bring some sort of drill. I imagine said drill would be mightily hard to get to Mars.

-A 100% efficient human waste recycling machine

Land near a source of water that isn't going to run out in the timeframe they are looking at. Keep an 1 year supply of backup water at all times.

-Long lasting, safe, lightweight power source (2 nuclear power sources with solar backup may be enough)

With 2 nuclear power sources might as well include a 2nd backup Solar array, even if was launched on the 2nd mission or a resupply mission.

-Some way to make/grow food on planet

I think we have the technology to do this, obviously some R&D would be needed but on a large budget it's definatly possible.

-Much better machines to get Oxygen from CO2

What is holding back this technology? lack of researchers?

#3 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » One question, what would it be? - Contact with an ET, what would you ask? » 2005-08-10 04:25:36

Can you please send pictures, videos, virtual reality environments, of your homeworld, it's species and your civilization?

Send them signal with similar information about Earth and Humanity (but not history or age of civilization).

#4 Re: Space Policy » Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first » 2005-08-10 04:14:26

"The first Communist planet"

This isn't the Cold War, that's just not going to happen. Being born in the mid eighties and missing out on everything but the tail end of the Cold War I guess might go part way to explaining why I disagree.

China has long since abandoned hardcore communism and even today you could argue they are further distancing themselves from communism.

""Black cat or white cat: If it can catch mice, it's a good cat.""

I think that quote/proverb maybe have been applied to their economy.

In the time frame we are talking about, with the first landings taking place between 2020-2040 I doubt a country will be left on Earth that would try and claim Mars for Communism (North Korea, Cuba included). I'd be more worried about a Theocracy (Christian, Muslim, or a Cult of some sort) claiming it the name of God/Gods/Allah/Xenu.

As for Taiwan, I hope they arn't invaded, but I've never really heard a reason why they shouldn't be a part of China. Basically Chinese has to find a way to convince Taiwan to join legally and without armed conflict and even if it came to that I don't see why a World War III (also known as the apocalypse) should be started over it?

I have to hope that international leaders arn't that stupid.

#5 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » what do you think aliens would look like? - like what color, how tall.....etc. » 2005-05-06 15:33:20

I hope they air these shows in Canada. Alien planet will probably be on our Discovery Channel, but I get the feeling I'm going to have to wait months before they finally do so.

Personally, I think if the conditions are right on a planet, intelligent environment-changing life is inevitable. I really do believe that if dinosaurs did not go extinct, some sort of very intelligent dino-bird would have evolved.

By environment changing I mean some sort of ability to construct complicated tools. Dolphins may be intellgent as far as nature goes, but they arn't going to be making any spaceships, flippers and teeth just don't cut it.

#6 Re: Civilization and Culture » KSR's Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars... - What do think of his books? » 2005-04-24 19:35:00

Mark Friedenbach,

I think you are underestimating how much quality robotics will help with the construction of the first Mars Colony. While KSR might set the date a bit early, Robot's are definatly the wave of the future. Go take a look at Sony's robotics section on their website, it's still early but I'm sure you'll see the possibilities.

Also I think your complaint that many of the Colonist didn't have a massive interest in Mars, can be explained partly in that some of those people were probably weeded out in the selection process. The Space Agencies probably would take steps to avoid the first 100 being made up of Red's, which are sure to exist in the future.

-----------------------------------------------------------

As for the books, I'm like many people here in that after I read the books it greatly increased my interest in Mars. Although, that interest had been building for many years previous ever since seeing Robert Zubrin talk about Terraforming Mars on a TV Show as a youngster.

It captured my imagination, and given that main characters from Red Mars' First 100 were born in the same generation as I was I think it even had more of an impact (1984, so the 80's). Even though I've had a steady job since graduating highschool not long ago, dreams of Mars are at least part of the reason I'm thinking of going to University.

In the future, if ever given the chance to go to Mars I probably would (even if chances were I would not be able to return to Earth).

#7 Re: Life support systems » Protein Sources in First Colonies - An idea » 2005-04-24 01:15:07

That's true about a vegitarian diet providing all the needed sources of protein, I should have said a source of meat instead.

With living conditions probably less than what they were used to back on Earth (more cramped, no "outside", etc), again it would only be natural that they would try and expand their diets over time, which would probably boost moral in the Colony.

Looking at the Mars Homestead Designs project website, its main habitation design features a central opening with a park of sorts and a pond. Such ponds might serve to farm additional Tilipia to be harvested on rare occassions.

http://www.marshome.org/]http://www.marshome.org/

If this new hiberation technology ends up working for other mammals that's definatly a positive step towards having additional sources of meat in the first colony. However I don't imagine Rodents or other digging animals will be taken at first. Wouldnt' there be a risk that they would dig out somehow? espcially if they were in the Greenhouses. I know they couldn't live on the surface but still I don't imagine it would be safe for the greenhouse.

I wonder would they grow chickens with these sorts of methods to save space and energy:
http://www.aces.edu/dept/nass/kidpage/c … 20barn.jpg
http://www.eggs.ab.ca/egg_industry/BARN … /BARN2.jpg
http://css.hsd.ca/nchicken.jpg]http://c … hicken.jpg

With the amount of food that a cow eats I imagine they would use Goats as a source of milk instead.

#8 Re: Civilization and Culture » Protien Sources for First Colonies - An idea » 2005-04-22 00:06:09

The type of fish that are commonly "farmed" this way are called Tilapia. They are a fast growing (and i think fast breeding?) type of fish from Africa, although I think there are varieties that can live in colder water.

This "pond" in the First Colony would be sealed from the Martian ground/soil by a thick layer of material (I'm no engineer so I don't know what would be best), probably with piping within its structure to distribute heat throughout the lining and keep the fish pond/well at the desired warmth (The water temp must not go below 50º F). The desired tempurature would be between 82º and 86º F.

As I imagine the first Martian Colony's will run off some sort of Nuclear Power, the power to run this facility would not be a problem.

The first steps would be obtain the fastest growing, fastest breeding and easiest growing type of Tilapia, and then through genentic engineering these attributes would be further increased. Then through the advice of Tilapia aquafarmers (which currently exist in fairly large numbers) a perfect diet could be designed to feed these fish when on Mars.

Ideally some sort of cheap "fish feed" would also be shipped from Earth (when other shipments are coming) to help feed the fish at first. Another important point to remember is these type of fish can grow in Rice fields, if there is enough water and once they reach around 6 inches, can be harvested and eaten. This would further increase the amount of food available to the colonists.

According to my research so far, they eat mostly fresh water plants, so another pond would be constructed (which need not be as warm) where these plants could be grown and be used to help feed the fish.

As the Colony would grow larger and as the food supply became more established to the point where there was a surplus, then I think we would then see the introduction first land animals to use for food. I'm guessing the first type would be birds, such as a genetically engineered variety of chicken. Then probably followed by goats and sheep, but that wouldn't be possible until very large areas of land could be put under greenhouse more easily.

P.S. I only say a Genetically engineer variety of Tilapia because this "type" would NEVER be coming back to Earth and probably would never released into the Martian environment once its Terraformed.

This is what they look like:
http://www.thaifishingguide.com/images/ … ...pia.jpg

This is a Tilapia farm pond:
http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/aquacultur … ...ond.JPG

Some information on the Species:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilapia]ht … ki/Tilapia

#9 Re: Life support systems » Protein Sources in First Colonies - An idea » 2005-04-22 00:03:29

The type of fish that are commonly "farmed" this way are called Tilapia. They are a fast growing (and i think fast breeding?) type of fish from Africa, although I think there are varieties that can live in colder water.

This "pond" in the First Colony would be sealed from the Martian ground/soil by a thick layer of material (I'm no engineer so I don't know what would be best), probably with piping within its structure to distribute heat throughout the lining and keep the fish pond/well at the desired warmth (The water temp must not go below 50º F). The desired tempurature would be between 82º and 86º F.

As I imagine the first Martian Colony's will run off some sort of Nuclear Power, the power to run this facility would not be a problem.

The first steps would be obtain the fastest growing, fastest breeding and easiest growing type of Tilapia, and then through genentic engineering these attributes would be further increased. Then through the advice of Tilapia aquafarmers (which currently exist in fairly large numbers) a perfect diet could be designed to feed these fish when on Mars.

Ideally some sort of cheap "fish feed" would also be shipped from Earth (when other shipments are coming) to help feed the fish at first. Another important point to remember is these type of fish can grow in Rice fields, if there is enough water and once they reach around 6 inches, can be harvested and eaten. This would further increase the amount of food available to the colonists.

P.S. I only say a Genetically engineer variety of Tilapia because this "type" would NEVER be coming back to Earth and probably would never released into the Martian environment once its Terraformed.

This is what they look like:
http://www.thaifishingguide.com/images/ … ...pia.jpg

This is a Tilapia farm pond:
http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/aquacultur … ...ond.JPG

Some information on the Species:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilapia]ht … ki/Tilapia

#10 Re: Life support systems » Protein Sources in First Colonies - An idea » 2005-03-21 20:30:13

What if power supply wasn't a big problem in the colony? heating pipes could be placed in the sealing layer to keep the water at the desired temperature.

I'm thinking along the lines of a nuclear reactor of some sort, ala Red Mars' Underhill.

#11 Re: Life support systems » Protein Sources in First Colonies - An idea » 2005-03-19 15:35:10

I've read many times that there will be either a strong lack or complete shortage of Protien sources (from animals) in the first Martian Colonies.

My idea is to drill a series of very deep and fairly wide holes into the Martian ground. These holes then would be lined with a layer of material to keep them seperated from the "dirt". Then a building would be built around the holes so that early colonist could access them without space suits.
These holes would then be filled with water and be used like giant Aquariums to grow fish and other types of sea life.

I lack the scientific background to know if such a thing would work, so I'm asking if anyone here could answer such a question.

#12 Re: Civilization and Culture » Protien Sources for First Colonies - An idea » 2005-03-19 15:29:05

I've read many times that there will be either a strong lack or complete shortage of Protien sources (from animals) in the first Martian Colonies.

My idea is to drill a series of very deep and fairly wide holes into the Martian ground. These holes then would be lined with a layer of material to keep them seperated from the "dirt". Then a building would be built around the holes so that early colonist could access them without space suits.
These holes would then be filled with water and be used like giant Aquariums to grow fish and other types of sea life.

I lack the scientific background to know if such a thing would work, so I'm asking if anyone here could answer such a question.

#13 Re: Terraformation » Adding mass to Mars - An idea to stop loosing atmosphere » 2005-01-30 18:31:20

Thank you both for your comments!

What if the holes the material were inserted into went to a suffient depth, would this help at all?

How much mass would deconstructing Phobos and Demos add to Mars?


As for the Europa idea, could this work? For some reason this almost seems like it would be easier to add mass to, considering how many other Moons could be used for raw materials.
Would adding mass to Europa put it in danger of being pulled into Jupiter?

#14 Re: Terraformation » Adding mass to Mars - An idea to stop loosing atmosphere » 2005-01-30 04:57:50

As for Europa, how about taking mass from another of Jupiters moons and dumping it onto the planet, into holes bored in the surface by giant machines. These materials would be mined by automated robots (again this is in the far far far future), at the same time once more mass was added robots would collect gasses from Jupiter itself.

Are there enough moons to provide the mass needed? something for someone to check out.

Pending first checking to see if life exists there of course.

#15 Re: Terraformation » Adding mass to Mars - An idea to stop loosing atmosphere » 2005-01-30 04:27:58

Assuming Mars is terraformed in the "increase density of atmosphere and tempurature" way.. there would still be the problem of Mars most likely loosing atmosphere over time and reverting back to its natural state.

Could this be stopped? depending on how long it would take to loose the atmosphere there could be an option that I havn't seen mentioned before. If there was time I would think such a Human civilization (just think, its capable of terraforming a planet, no easy task) would add mass to Mars. Imagine ships bringing Iron/Metal heavy comets near Mars to be broken down into small box, and shipped via space cable(s) to the planets surface. Scatter them or bury them evenly spaced in deep holes around the planet. Use Phobos and or Demos for extra mass if needed as well.

In a process of loss that would take normally generations to complete, this process would be fought until it reached a signicant mass, however long it took.

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